Your Discovery of the Year

[kyjo]

Please report back if you do purchase the CD :)

[Toby Esterhase]

Indeed, Toby! As has been mentioned elsewhere, CPO is embarking on a Andriessen symphonic cycle (with other orchestral works thrown in). Although the Etcetera performances are fine, I have no doubt Cpo will be able to improve upon them. BTW did anyone here purchase the first volume in the CPO series (containing Symphony no. 1, Ballet Suite, Symphonic Etudes and Kuhnau Variations), and if so, how did it compare to the performances on Etcetera?

I have to add also this:

Maybe a correct statement regarding netherlands music say that Holland had for any time
a more conservative language than Belgium?

[kyjo]

Hmmm...the negative reviews on Amazon deterred me from buying this CD :-\

Toby-you seem to have a positive opinion of it...what do other members think?

[Caostotale]

I have been busy digging through lots of Soviet-era scores this past year, so great discoveries are coming at me quite often. If forced to point out my most significant 'discovery of the year', I would have to single out Georgian composer Sulkhan Tsintsadze and point out the following amazing website, which has all of his string quartets available for streaming:

http://www.georgian-music.com/free_music/tsintsadze.php

In addition to that, it was excellent to hear both his 24 preludes for piano and his 24 preludes for cello/piano on Youtube thanks to some generous individuals on there.

[Christo]

Maybe a correct statement regarding netherlands music say that Holland had for any time
a more conservative language than Belgium?

A perhaps more correct observation would be, that Chandos opted for the more conservative names - mostly long neglected, as e.g. Dopper, Voormolen, even Hol, the peculiar choices Chandos made met with general disapproval and even embarrassment, in Dutch musical circles - just because of the long dominance of Modernism. The same applies to CPO, with their choice for e.g. Van Gilse, Röntgen, Badings and Andriessen, all long neglected for similar reasons. Overall, one cannot say that Modernism came later in the Netherlands than in Belgium; in e.g. painting and music it might even be the other way around.

(I'm not claming that Modernism is something 'better' or of higher interest; my own interest lies more with Neoclassicism in the broader sense and I personally prefer Andriessen and Badings over their more 'modern' contemporaries. Just trying to make a historical observation).  ;)

[Toby Esterhase]

Maybe a correct statement regarding netherlands music say that Holland had for any time
a more conservative language than Belgium?

A perhaps more correct observation would be, that Chandos opted for the more conservative names - mostly long neglected, as e.g. Dopper, Voormolen, even Hol, the peculiar choices Chandos made met with general disapproval and even embarrassment, in Dutch musical circles - just because of the long dominance of Modernism. The same applies to CPO, with their choice for e.g. Van Gilse, Röntgen, Badings and Andriessen, all long neglected for similar reasons. Overall, one cannot say that Modernism came later in the Netherlands than in Belgium; in e.g. painting and music it might even be the other way around.

(I'm not claming that Modernism is something 'better' or of higher interest; my own interest lies more with Neoclassicism in the broader sense and I personally prefer Andriessen and Badings over their more 'modern' contemporaries. Just trying to make a historical observation).  ;)

Thanks for your observation.
May you suggest conservative post 1930 belgian composers (beyond Maes)?
However i saw a hint of RVW style both in Orthel than in Andriessen but perhaps are ravelian echoes.

[kyjo]

First of all, I am not sure exactly what you mean by "post-1930". Do you mean born after 1930 or composed music after 1930? I am assuming you mean the latter, since you mention Jef Maes, who was born in 1905. If you do mean the latter, then there are many conservative Belgian composers who composed music after 1930. Allow me to list a few:

Jean Absil, Daniel Sternefeld, Arthur Meulemans, Jef van Hoof, Joseph Jongen, Flor Alpaerts, Joseph Ryelandt, Jean Rogister, Armand Marsick, Marcel Poot, Peter Cabus, Godfried and Frederic Devreese, Willem Kersters, Vic Legley, Frederik van Rossum, Peter Welffens, David van de Woestijne, Richard de Guide, Ludewijk de Vocht, Marinus de Jong, Frits Celis, Robert Herberigs, Prosper van Eechaute, Ernest van der Eyken etc.

I'm sure there are many more! All of the above composers are well worth exploring. I'm not sure I agree with your statement that Dutch music, in general, is more conservative than Belgian music. Truth be told, neither country could be counted among the more musically "advanced" countries. But I don't can't think of any Belgian composers who were as innovative and original as Pijper and Badings that lived in the same approximate time period of those two composers. Many of the Belgian composers were strongly influenced by French music and wrote music in the late-romantic, impressionistic and neo-classical styles, rather than the bold, harder-edged, more modern style Pijper and Badings developed. In other words, Dutch music has a stronger identity than Belgian music; not as strong as, say Nordic or Russian music, but stronger than Belgian music, which could easily be mistaken for French music in many cases. Just my two cents worth.

 :)

[Toby Esterhase]

First of all, I am not sure exactly what you mean by "post-1930". Do you mean born after 1930 or composed music after 1930? I am assuming you mean the latter, since you mention Jef Maes, who was born in 1905. If you do mean the latter, then there are many conservative Belgian composers who composed music after 1930. Allow me to list a few:

Jean Absil, Daniel Sternefeld, Arthur Meulemans, Jef van Hoof, Joseph Jongen, Flor Alpaerts, Joseph Ryelandt, Jean Rogister, Armand Marsick, Marcel Poot, Peter Cabus, Godfried and Frederic Devreese, Willem Kersters, Vic Legley, Frederik van Rossum, Peter Welffens, David van de Woestijne, Richard de Guide, Ludewijk de Vocht, Marinus de Jong, Frits Celis, Robert Herberigs, Prosper van Eechaute, Ernest van der Eyken etc.

I'm sure there are many more! All of the above composers are well worth exploring. I'm not sure I agree with your statement that Dutch music, in general, is more conservative than Belgian music. Truth be told, neither country could be counted among the more musically "advanced" countries. But I don't can't think of any Belgian composers who were as innovative and original as Pijper and Badings that lived in the same approximate time period of those two composers. Many of the Belgian composers were strongly influenced by French music and wrote music in the late-romantic, impressionistic and neo-classical styles, rather than the bold, harder-edged, more modern style Pijper and Badings developed. In other words, Dutch music has a stronger identity than Belgian music; not as strong as, say Nordic or Russian music, but stronger than Belgian music, which could easily be mistaken for French music in many cases. Just my two cents worth.

 :)

Many TNX for your exhaustive answer IMHO would be better also explore relationship
between these composers and folklore heritage in both countries.
 :)
Going to Switzerland i was delighted by this:
hope that now works.

[kyjo]

You're welcome :) Inspired by this interesting discussion, I've just posted a catalogue of the operatic and orchestral works of the very fine Belgian composer Robert Herberigs (chamber and piano works to come next). Um, it looks like you forgot to post a picture or something as there is a very large amount of space underneath your post ;)

[kyjo]

I have been busy digging through lots of Soviet-era scores this past year, so great discoveries are coming at me quite often. If forced to point out my most significant 'discovery of the year', I would have to single out Georgian composer Sulkhan Tsintsadze and point out the following amazing website, which has all of his string quartets available for streaming:

http://www.georgian-music.com/free_music/tsintsadze.php

In addition to that, it was excellent to hear both his 24 preludes for piano and his 24 preludes for cello/piano on Youtube thanks to some generous individuals on there.

Thanks for the link, Caos! Tsintsadze is a composer I have long been interested in. His Fantasy for piano and orchestra, which is a delightful and wholly accessible mixture of Rachmaninov and Khachaturian, is a favorite of mine. His later works are a bit less conservative in general, but still quite accessible to my ears. There's this disc with the Fantasy and some other orchestral works of his and of his countryman Alexei Machavariani:



and his Violin Concerto no. 2 and Fantasy for piano and orchestra on YouTube:
VC (1/2):
VC (2/2):
Fantasy:

I'd really like to hear at least one of his five symphonies, which do not appear to be available anywhere.

 :)

[kyjo]

Going to Switzerland i was delighted by this:
hope that now works.

Thanks for fixing this! Quite a bit of Gerber's music has been recorded by Gallo: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=rene+gerber#/ref=sr_pg_1?rh=n%3A5174%2Ck%3Arene+gerber&keywords=rene+gerber&ie=UTF8&qid=1357783107

Quite delightful music, indeed! Not a major composer but one who is definitely deserving of people's attention.

 :)

[Caostotale]

and his Violin Concerto no. 2 and Fantasy for piano and orchestra on YouTube:
VC (1/2):
VC (2/2):
Fantasy:

I'd really like to hear at least one of his five symphonies, which do not appear to be available anywhere.

 :)

The bottom of that Georgian page has five concertos and an opera. The third symphony is recorded on a 1971 Melodiya LP. That one doesn't appear to be on eBay right now but I was surprised to see the following LP...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tsintsadze-Gabunia-Azarashvili-Sanadze-Georgian-LP-/271123240391?pt=UK_Records&hash=item3f203455c7

...which contains the Fantasia for string quartet and orchestra from 1977.

He's really an excellent composer. Perhaps the best recording I've heard of his work is a Georgian State String Quartet disc containing his sixth quartet and a set of miniatures (along with Sulkhan Nasidze's beautiful fifth quartet):

http://www.amazon.com/Nasidze-Tsintsadze-String-Quartet-No/dp/B0058XB0TE

It's a bummer that the rest of his quartets aren't yet on record, but I suppose that's why I'm so thankful for those streaming recordings.

The appearance of some Azerbaijani works on the Naxos label in recent years gave me some hope that labels like that might dig deeper into the rich musical cultures of the Caucasus, Ukraine, and Central Asian countries.

[Christo]

However i saw a hint of RVW style both in Orthel than in Andriessen but perhaps are ravelian echoes.

Yes, I think they are. British music never played a role in the Netherlands and both Orthel and Andriessen had a preference for French music. Andriessen wrote extensively on music, he's a fine writer too, but I doubt if I ever read the name 'RVW' in it. Vaughan Williams was hardly, if ever, performed in this country and is still largely absent.

Generally speaking, the Dutch musical world functioned as a backyard to the German musical world in the 19th Century and came only to stand on its own feet around 1900, when French influences and a general cultural renewal (sometimes considered a 'Second Golden Age') prevailed. Especially Andriessen was more influenced by French than by German culture, though he was a men of wide cultural interest and also looked back to Old Music and followed everything contemporary of his liking. But I doubt if he ever heard anything by RVW, notwithstanding some similarities in style (I myself love both composers).

Orthel was almost completely neglected and rarely performed, apart from the termporal success of his Piccola Sinfonia (No. 2, 1940). For me, the twofer with his Third and Fourth symphonies came as a big surprise, three years ago, and made me 'discover' him anew (I had known the Evocazione before, heard on the radio around 1979, but that was his only piece I knew for decades). BTW: his Fifth and Sixthe symphonies can be found among the downloads on this site.

Andriessen too suffered neglect; especially from the 1960s on he, and a complete generation of 'conservative' composers, were almost completely done away with, especially under the influence of the revolutionary 1968 generation - among whom his youngest son, Louis Andriessen, used to be quite influential). I was happy to see Louis in a concert, more or less a second premiere, of Hendrik Andriessen's Veertien Stonden [Fourteen Canonical Hours] for choir and strings, three years ago in Utrecht (and own a cd of that performance). He nowadays more or less 'honours' his father's legacy again, but it has been a long time.

It isn't accidental that we can only now - especially since the release by Etcetera of the twofer with them - hear his four symphonies, the more so now CPO started a cycle that will probably inclue the other orchestral music as well.  :)

[Dundonnell]

I have no issue with the rediscovery and promotion of the generation of Dutch composers which includes Bernhard Zweers(b. 1854), Julius Rontgen(b. 1855), Johan Wagenaar(b.1862), Alphons Diepenbrock(b.1862), Cornelis Dopper(b.1870) and Jan van Gilse(b. 1881).

Some of these composers-Rontgen is the obvious example-were clearly heavily influenced by composers like Brahms and (in Rontgen's case). In others, the beginnings of the influence of French music can begin to be heard.

Hendrik Andriessen belongs-it seems to me-to belong to the next generation. He was born in 1892. In between, of course, is the eccentric "on-off" figure of Matthjis Vermeulen(b. 1888).

But it is the next generation of Dutch composers, who are more clearly of the 20th century and are more obviously inflenced by the European mainstream(from Mahler onwards) who deserve equal and urgent attention.

CPO have made a start with Henk Badings(b. 1907) but it is a slow start and-given Badings' prodigious output and the developmental nature of his music-needs to be speeded up. Orthel, a contemprary of Badings (he was born two years earlier in 1905)  has, quite correctly, been mentioned.

But the other astonishing omission is Willem Pijper(born two years after Andriessen in 1894). Pijper was a hugely influential and important figure in Dutch music in the 1920s and 1930s. True, he did not always exercise his influence 'kindly'. His strong disagreements with other Dutch composers and the way in which he used his power to undermine their positions was, to say the least, unfortunate ::)  But his music deserves far more attention than it has received in recent times.

One could certainly argue that in the 1930s (before the German invasion in 1940) the two most significant Dutch composers were Pijper and Badings. There are historical reasons for understanding the previous neglect of the latter, given the question marks around his conduct during the German Occupation of the Netherlands.....but it is time extra-musical considerations were put aside and the music given its proper place.

[shamus]

Some Dutch Jewish composers have always been my favorites. Leo Smit, to me was an amazing composer, who was murdered by the Nazis age 43, and Rosy Wertheim (1888-1949) wrote some lovely songs and chamber works, as well as a piano concerto. She was able to remain in Holland in hiding with the help of friends and continued composing and teaching. The first movement of her piano concerto was prepared for a concert several years ago, I can't remember the name of the man who did it, but it was played by Jonahan Gilad, and made me want to hear the whole thing. Many of Smits works have thankfully been recorded by the Dutch government. Another composer whose music I have enjoyed when I could find it was Sem Dresden (1881-1957). Dick Kattenburg (1919-1944) was also murdered by the Nazis and his songs I have heard were magical. By the way, I hate Nazis.

http://www.leosmit.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosy_Wertheim