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16  MEMBERS' CORNER / Miscellany / Re: Idiotic Comments on Composers or Music! on: September 22, 2017, 06:25:39 am
I went looking for performances of the Sibelius 7th on You Tube.I found a performance from the 2013 Proms with the Mahler Chamber Orchestra conducted by Daniel Harding. Unfortunately the video includes the intro' by the ineffable, dreadful, asinine Katie Derham.

Having commented on Sibelius's later silence as a composer Ms Derham says:

"You know, I always think that it is amazing that Sibelius, who most active as a composer in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, should have lived long enough to hear Elvis Presley".

...and with that thought in one's mind begins one of Sibelius's most profound,beautiful and moving compositions

Am I alone in finding this woman and her ignorant comments insufferable?
No.
17  MUSIC OF ALL ERAS / Concerts / Re: Glass Symphony No. 11 on: September 18, 2017, 03:12:30 pm
Glass's 11th will be played by the Royal Liverpool PO under Petrenko in Gateshead on 30 September. I have my ticket!
I can think of better things that it could be played under but will refrain from doing so; why Petrenko, of all people, is doing this beggars belief. Sorry.
18  DOWNLOADS ARRANGED BY NATIONALITY / Downloads: discussion without links should be posted here, for the access of both members and non-members alike / Re: The Karelian Roine Rautio on: September 15, 2017, 02:37:02 pm
near the present-day city, Ääninen being the Finnish toponym for Lake Onega.

 
Good luck with promoting Tchaikovsky's Evgeny Ääninen    :-)
!!!
19  MUSIC OF ALL ERAS / General musical discussion / Re: Discarded, withdrawn, suppressed early Symphonies. on: September 15, 2017, 02:26:32 pm
Because of separate cultural and linguistic histories, each nation does have an individual musical character, at least so far as folk-inflected music goes. So RVW is quintessentially English in character, while Grace Williams is a conspicuously Welsh composer, drawing on quite a different cultural background.
...I don't see this as applicable much today, either within UK or indeed elsewhere. Even Elgar doesn't sound "English" to me. Take four English composers born in 1943 (two of them actually on the same day) - Brian Ferneyhough, Gavin Bryars, the aforementioned David Matthews and Robin Holloway; would anyone listening to the work of all of them be expected even to assume the country in which each originated, let alone that they all came from the same one?

This is a very interesting question. Obviously, nationality is more evident in tonal music where there is more likelihood of folk-inflected melody. But:

(a) There are still composers today who show folk influences. I would counter your examples with Eddie McGuire and James MacMillan, who are recognisably Scottish.
(b) A sort of national style may also be evident through a teaching tradition. I think if one heard a piece by, say, Miloslav Kabeláč (admittedly b. 1908) without knowing the composer, one could at least identify it as Czech.
(c) I suspect you could pick four American composers born in 1943 whose music is obviously American.

Incidentally, regarding other posts in this thread, I do regard myself as a European. My best friends are spread around Spain, Italy, Germany, Czechia, Slovenia, Switzerland, Norway ...
With regard to (a), I wouldn't say that "nationality is (my italics) more evident in tonal music where there is more likelihood of folk-inflected melody" but that it can be so should the composer so desire or intend; there's also the possibility of a kind of self-imposed musical "nationality" in which, for example, James MacMillan (whom you mention) could be cited as an example whereas James Dillon largely could not, I think. I'm also reminded of my compatriot Thea Musgrave's comment about being a woman and a composer but rarely at the same time, which could as easily be paraphrased as being a Scot and a composer but not necessarily at the same time unless the composer feels so disposed; I would say that I fall into the latter category. I've written a couple of pieces that could be said to espouse certain things Scottish but that was deliberate although at the same time not the way I would usually go about writing - and I'm one of them tonal composers! Then there's the argument about what folk or folk-inspired music might be for a composer; I'm thinking here of Elgar's retort to someone who accused him of unwillingness to engage with English folk traditions in his work, namely that he was a composer and one of the folk, therefore he wrote folk music.

With (b) a "national style" might once have been "evident through a teaching tradition" but not for quite some time, I think; also many composers study in countries other than their own and have done for many decades.

As to (c), I sought to cite four English composers born in the same year to illustrate differences rather than commonalities and, whilst one could indeed cite four American composers born in 1943 to illustrate similarities (although I can't for the moment think who I would name in such a context), what does it mean to be an "American" composer? Thomson and Carter have each, independently of one another (as far as I know), answered that question by asserting that it simply means having to be an American citizen and then writing just whatever you want.

We seem to have departed from the thread topic rather, so perhaps a new thread centring on points made in the last few posts here might be a good idea!
20  MUSIC OF ALL ERAS / General musical discussion / Re: Discarded, withdrawn, suppressed early Symphonies. on: September 15, 2017, 02:11:48 pm
Europa is a conglomerate of countries at best.

Agree, some try to live together. Although Juncker must be a fine man at home, he (and many others) try too hard to make Europeans of us. As a Dutchie I'll never understand Germans completely (as an example).
But neither Juncker nor anyone else needs to make, or try to make, Europeans out of people who are already Europeans! In any case, being a European doesn't obligate those who are so to understand everything about people from another European state; furthermore, individual states and cultural influences and input therein change over time all the time - just consider how many Poles lived in UK a century ago and the number that do so now. I'm not in favour of undue union between European states but far better at least some than the kind of disunity that can lead to wars and has indeed done so in the past, as well we all know.
21  MUSIC OF ALL ERAS / Commercial recordings (vintage, new and forthcoming) / Re: Svetlanov Anthology on: September 14, 2017, 11:54:51 am
The fact that Svetlanov was a formidable pianist is all too often overlooked; he performed the piano parts of at least two of Medtner's three sonatas for violin and piano and these are really quite incredibly demanding.
22  INTRODUCTION & FAQs / Greetings / Re: I'm back! on: September 13, 2017, 05:16:26 pm
I didn't see anything about that posts about Shostakovich were not allowed??!?
They are allowed, but in moderation, because he is certainly not "unsung" is he. What are not allowed are copyright recordings of performances of his works. Personally I cannot abide any of his wearisome stuff, but that is beside the point.
Yes.. sometimes his symphonies remind me of sour milk.....and some of Prokofiev.. the same...   story about Glazunov walking out of a Prokofiev symphony performance shaking his head back and worth.. muttering "what the hell have we created".....
There's a great deal more to Shostakovich than just his symphonies, wonderful as most of those are and none of which remind me of any kind of milk, but each to their own, I guess. It's interesting how people's tastes can change, though, even without obvious reason; Sorabji wrote some of the most barbed criticisms of Shostakovich in the 1940s and occasionally also before and after that decade, yet in the 1970s he persuaded himself to listen to a number of his works including the first violin concerto and fourth, tenth and thirteenth symphonies and was so impressed by them that he confessed to Ronald Stevenson that anyone who could not appreciate Shostakovich as a Master would be inept. He must have remembered some of what he'd written about him way back when because he expressed to me his concern as to whether Shostakovich might ever have read or been told about any of it; despite assuring him that I thought this most unlikely, he felt moved to draft a letter of apology to Shostakovich but it was never sent because this was in August 1975...
23  INTRODUCTION & FAQs / Greetings / Re: I'm back! on: September 13, 2017, 01:55:33 pm

They are allowed, but in moderation, because he is certainly not "unsung" is he.


That's odd, because I have been a member of this forum since its inception, and it has never been the Unsung Composers Forum (although fans of Unsung Composers are certainly welcome here, alongside others).

When I scroll to the top of the page, it clearly says The Art-Music Forum in large, bold lettering. It furthermore tells us that the forum enables discussion of
Quote
all the Arts in an erudite and decorous atmosphere full of freedom and delight
. There is nothing about Shostakovich, Unsung Composers, or any other specific composers.
Exactly; indeed, the same thought occurred to me when I noted with surprise the reference to "unsung" in this forum...
24  MUSIC OF ALL ERAS / General musical discussion / Re: Discarded, withdrawn, suppressed early Symphonies. on: September 13, 2017, 01:53:59 pm
Well, I'm not a European. I only live in Europe. In my opinion Europeans don't exist. I'm dutch.
Europe is no country like the USA. Europa is a conglomerate of countries at best.
You're "not a European", yet you're "Dutch"? How did you manage that?! I didnt suggest that Europe is a country (for obviously it is not), but to come from Europe as you do surely means that you are European like everyone else who is Dutch? If this haphazardly and clumsily conducted Brexit business concludes with UK leaving EU in one form or another (which please God or whoever else it won't), Brits won't suddenly cease to be Europeans!

We ought to allow for the distinction between ethnicity and nationality. There are many Scots in New Zealand - for example - who have never spent a instant of their lives in the Northern Hemisphere, yet whose hearts swell proudly on Burns Night.
Quite so! The same goes for Scots living in England, of course...
25  MUSIC OF ALL ERAS / General musical discussion / Re: Discarded, withdrawn, suppressed early Symphonies. on: September 13, 2017, 12:16:00 pm
Well, I'm not a European. I only live in Europe. In my opinion Europeans don't exist. I'm dutch.
Europe is no country like the USA. Europa is a conglomerate of countries at best.
You're "not a European", yet you're "Dutch"? How did you manage that?! I didnt suggest that Europe is a country (for obviously it is not), but to come from Europe as you do surely means that you are European like everyone else who is Dutch? If this haphazardly and clumsily conducted Brexit business concludes with UK leaving EU in one form or another (which please God or whoever else it won't), Brits won't suddenly cease to be Europeans!
26  MUSIC OF ALL ERAS / General musical discussion / Re: Discarded, withdrawn, suppressed early Symphonies. on: September 13, 2017, 12:12:03 pm
Calloing a Scotsman Welsh isn't by nature insulting: it would simply be incorrect (other, perhaps, then in cases such as Ronald Stevenson who was Scots on his father's side and Welsh on his mother's, although I've never heard him referred to other than as a Scottish composer). Speaking personally, I'm a European first, a Scot second and a Brit last.

Anyway - back to the topic!
On the other hand, Scots do find it offensive when the whole of the UK is referred to as "England", which is very common.
True!

There is a clear analogy between the music of the four nations and sport. There is seldom a "British team"; there will be a Scottish team, a Welsh team and so on, and there is fierce rivalry. Traditionally, a Scot will support whichever team is playing against England in a match, and it doesn't matter who.
That's also largely true, but...

Because of separate cultural and linguistic histories, each nation does have an individual musical character, at least so far as folk-inflected music goes. So RVW is quintessentially English in character, while Grace Williams is a conspicuously Welsh composer, drawing on quite a different cultural background.
...I don't see this as applicable much today, either within UK or indeed elsewhere. Even Elgar doesn't sound "English" to me. Take four English composers born in 1943 (two of them actually on the same day) - Brian Ferneyhough, Gavin Bryars, the aforementioned David Matthews and Robin Holloway; would anyone listening to the work of all of them be expected even to assume the country in which each originated, let alone that they all came from the same one?
27  INTRODUCTION & FAQs / Greetings / Re: I'm back! on: September 13, 2017, 08:19:09 am
I didn't see anything about that posts about Shostakovich were not allowed??!?

They are allowed, but in moderation, because he is certainly not "unsung" is he. What are not allowed are copyright recordings of performances of his works. Personally I cannot abide any of his wearisome stuff, but that is beside the point.
Indeed it is!
28  MUSIC OF ALL ERAS / General musical discussion / Re: Discarded, withdrawn, suppressed early Symphonies. on: September 12, 2017, 05:29:59 pm
One of England's finest living symphonists with 9 symphonies to his name wrote about 2½ symphonies before his official "Symphony No. 1", although I do not know if any of them still exist; I refer here to David Matthews.

Interesting.  I too am a fan of his.  It is interesting how different stylistically he is from Colin Matthews.  I like quite a bit of Colin's music as well but he is a bit more hit or miss for me.  I think his "Cortege" is a very fine and intense Mahler style work.  You don't really get that Germanic sense in David's music since he seems more rooted in England (or is it British Dundonnell?  Someone needs to explain the nomenclature and its historical implication to us yanks). 

Briefly Grin the United Kingdom is made up of England, Scotland and Wales (often collectively called "Great Britain" and Northern Ireland. Scotland was an independent country until 1707 when it united with England, although the two countries had shared the same monarch from 1603 when the Scottish King, James VI inherited the crown of England from his cousin, Queen Elizabeth i. Although the Scottish Parliament was abolished in 1707 Scotland kept and still keeps its own separate and different legal system and educational system. Now that Devolution has given Scotland (and Wales) their own Assemblies (parliaments without full powers) the U.K. has moved somewhat towards the Federal model as in Canada, Australia and, of course, the USA as well as European countries like Germany and, currently much in the news, Spain!!

There is ongoing debate (often very bitter) about whether Scotland should return to full independence- just as there is in Catalonia which is trying to secede from the rest of Spain. Even however if, as a Scot, one does not support independence most Scots are proud to be Scottish.

....and, after all, there are plenty of New Yorkers who think that they have not much in common with the people in California and vice versa Grin

Btw the British Queen is also Queen of Canada, Australia and New Zealand.....although these countries MAY opt to become Republics one day.

(This is a very abbreviated attempt to answer the question about nomenclature and historical significance and I have tried to reduce it to its most basic!)

Thank you for the brief explanation of the complicated history.  I studied some time in Ireland and felt bitterness but didn't understand.  Much appreciated.  So each of these regions of very strong national identities, correct?  So it could be insulting to call a Scotsman Welsh for example? I recall in London that all got along until booz was introduced where they let their real feelings be heard.  Meanwhile there are also colonists adding to the complexity. I know some from Scotland who are fiercely independent minded but this is difficult for yanks to reconcile with brexit people who want isolation and their own individual national identity.  Dundonnell, I would love to meet you for dinner or for a pint and understand this better but sadly I am broke and live thousands of miles away. 
Calling a Scotsman Welsh isn't by nature insulting: it would simply be incorrect (other, perhaps, then in cases such as Ronald Stevenson who was Scots on his father's side and Welsh on his mother's, although I've never heard him referred to other than as a Scottish composer). Speaking personally, I'm a European first, a Scot second and a Brit last.

Anyway - back to the topic!
29  MUSIC OF ALL ERAS / General musical discussion / Re: Discarded, withdrawn, suppressed early Symphonies. on: September 09, 2017, 03:44:20 pm
One of England's finest living symphonists with 9 symphonies to his name wrote about 2½ symphonies before his official "Symphony No. 1", although I do not know if any of them still exist; I refer here to David Matthews.
30  INTRODUCTION & FAQs / Greetings / Re: Truly Bizarre behavior at Unsung Composers on: September 05, 2017, 09:12:58 am
yes.. already chastised about the "1918 Rule"   ... if the composition was written after 1918, then we don't want any threads about it, unless "we" determine that the style is romantic.   The term "we" are certain moderators that will exclusively determine if the composition is romantic.    How silly.

Obviously in invoking of the royal "we",  in anticipation of Will & Kate's #3 to be born early next year...
Oh, I don't think so (not that it would be remotely excusable if it were so). Prince William and his wife's forthcoming third child has no conceivable (sorry!) connection with the bizarre antics at UC, including the immoderate conduct of its "moderators". What's sadly long since been cast into oblivion there is the name of the forum; "unsung" means "unsung", not "post-whenever pre-1918 Romantic-if-"we"-decide-that-it-is".
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