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MUSIC OF ALL ERAS => General musical discussion => Topic started by: Albion on May 05, 2021, 10:45:47 pm



Title: Napoleon's 200th
Post by: Albion on May 05, 2021, 10:45:47 pm
Just listening to a programme on Radio 3 about Napoleon on the bi-centenary of his death. Does the "Napoleonic Period" have much of a musical legacy?

(https://assets.sutori.com/user-uploads/image/25df73c1-dca8-4658-8990-620576c02801/a4feadc6431eaee176ed793828f4cd4b.jpeg)

 :-\


Title: Re: Napoleon's 200th
Post by: JP on May 06, 2021, 08:41:49 am
In opera, perhaps?

I recall reading that the theatrical works of Mehul, Cherubini etc. during the Napoleonic period were an influence on Weber - and thence on Romantic opera in general.

And, staying in France, Spontini's works during Napoleon's reign surely set the stage (sorry!) for the French grand operas to come.


Title: Re: Napoleon's 200th
Post by: Albion on May 06, 2021, 09:36:09 am
It's not an area of the repertoire I know anything about.

 ???

The only early nineteenth century French music I have is the wonderful two-disc set of choral music by Cherubini conducted by Riccardo Muti on EMI which contains the Requiem in memory of Louis XVI (1816), the Mass for the Coronation of Louis XVIII (1819) and the Mass for the Coronation of Charles X (1825) -

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/044/MI0001044546.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

EMI France 7243 5 72786 2 1

 :)


Title: Re: Napoleon's 200th
Post by: christopher on May 06, 2021, 10:35:59 am
Wait, didn't Tchaikovsky write something?   ??? ;D


Title: Re: Napoleon's 200th
Post by: Albion on May 06, 2021, 10:41:42 am
Wait, didn't Tchaikovsky write something?   ??? ;D

Oh, yes, that dainty, understated morceau...

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/14/f3/95/14f395efef94e149b4687485e576617e.jpg)

 ;)


Title: Re: Napoleon's 200th
Post by: JP on May 06, 2021, 10:42:55 am
The only early nineteenth century French music I have is the wonderful two-disc set of choral music by Cherubini conducted by Riccardo Muti on EMI which contains the Requiem in memory of Louis XVI (1816), the Mass for the Coronation of Louis XVIII (1819) and the Mass for the Coronation of Charles X (1825).

 :)

Oh yes, I have those recordings too - wonderful stuff!

Wait, didn't Tchaikovsky write something?   ??? ;D

 ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: Napoleon's 200th
Post by: JP on May 06, 2021, 10:44:15 am

Oh, yes, that dainty, understated morceau...

 ;)

Almost spat my tea out then...  ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: Napoleon's 200th
Post by: Lionel Harrison on May 06, 2021, 10:45:40 am
Wait, didn't Tchaikovsky write something?   ??? ;D
;D
Beethoven did too but his contributions were written when Napoleon was still busy a-conquering. If the Eroica Symphony is regrded as some kind of watershed piece in musical history, I guess we have old Boney to thank for changing the course of it.
:)


Title: Re: Napoleon's 200th
Post by: Albion on May 06, 2021, 10:50:25 am
If the Eroica Symphony is regarded as some kind of watershed piece in musical history, I guess we have old Boney to thank for changing the course of it.
 :)

That's a good point! Whenever I hear mention of Bony-Party it makes me think of Vaughan Williams' Hugh the Drover - funny that...

 ;)


Title: Re: Napoleon's 200th
Post by: Lionel Harrison on May 06, 2021, 11:05:05 am
If the Eroica Symphony is regarded as some kind of watershed piece in musical history, I guess we have old Boney to thank for changing the course of it.
 :)

That's a good point! Whenever I hear mention of Bony-Party it makes me think of Vaughan Williams' Hugh the Drover - funny that...

 ;)
It makes me think of Julian and Sandy!
 ;)


Title: Re: Napoleon's 200th
Post by: Albion on May 06, 2021, 11:11:22 am
It makes me think of Julian and Sandy! ;)

If we ever meet it would indeed be bona to vada your dolly old eek...

 ;D


Title: Re: Napoleon's 200th
Post by: Lionel Harrison on May 06, 2021, 11:13:37 am
It makes me think of Julian and Sandy! ;)

If we ever meet it would indeed be bona to vada your dolly old eek...

 ;D
;D
Thank you. My eek is more old than dolly!


Title: Re: Napoleon's 200th
Post by: Albion on May 06, 2021, 11:16:55 am
;D
Thank you. My eek is more old than dolly!

Uh-oh, more thread-derailment ahead, methinks...

(https://museumsvictoria.com.au/railways/images/resources/large/MM001438.jpg)

...hang on to your corsets.

 ;)


Title: Re: Napoleon's 200th
Post by: Lionel Harrison on May 06, 2021, 11:19:42 am

Uh-oh, more thread-derailment ahead, methinks...

 ;)

I seem to be good at that!


Title: Re: Napoleon's 200th
Post by: Albion on May 06, 2021, 11:22:02 am

Uh-oh, more thread-derailment ahead, methinks...

 ;)

I seem to be good at that!

(https://s3.envato.com/files/238408749/trophy590x300.jpg)

 ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: Napoleon's 200th
Post by: Lionel Harrison on May 06, 2021, 11:25:01 am

Uh-oh, more thread-derailment ahead, methinks...

 ;)

I seem to be good at that!

(https://s3.envato.com/files/238408749/trophy590x300.jpg)

 ;D ;D ;D

How kind. Thank you!
 ;D


Title: Re: Napoleon's 200th
Post by: Albion on May 06, 2021, 11:47:56 am

Uh-oh, more thread-derailment ahead, methinks...

 ;)

I seem to be good at that!

Perhaps we should start the AMF Party in a bid to get proper subsidy for the arts...

A noble idea but I fear we'd be on a fool's errand.

(https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-5dc6dc8439e701f82c80ff1b93ad7c3e)

I've already outlined a ministerial cabinet...

 ;)

Ah, Secretary of State for Transport! After all, you couldn't do a worse job than Grant Shapps...

 ;D


Title: Re: Napoleon's 200th
Post by: Lionel Harrison on May 06, 2021, 11:55:40 am

Ah, Secretary of State for Transport! After all, you couldn't do a worse job than Grant Shapps...

 ;D

Gee, thanks! :-\


Title: Re: Napoleon's 200th
Post by: Albion on May 06, 2021, 02:39:08 pm
In opera, perhaps?

I recall reading that the theatrical works of Mehul, Cherubini etc. during the Napoleonic period were an influence on Weber - and thence on Romantic opera in general.

And, staying in France, Spontini's works during Napoleon's reign surely set the stage (sorry!) for the French grand operas to come.

I love the whole concept of mid-nineteenth century French Grand Opera, replete with extensive ballets, sumptuous scenery, unlikely plots and casts of thousands as epitomised by Meyerbeer, Herold, Halévy, Gounod, etc. And I relish the fact that Verdi frequently popped ballets into his operas (even Otello, added in 1894 for the Palais Garnier) just to suit Parisian taste...

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6c/d3/45/6cd345e9de2a9bbef7bab494a4c19323.jpg)

...ooh la la!

 ;)



Title: Re: Napoleon's 200th
Post by: Albion on May 07, 2021, 10:41:24 am
It's always puzzled me as to why there was no strong tradition of purely orchestral works in France until Berlioz came along (choral and operatic yes, of course). Perhaps there was and I'm just totally unaware of it...

 ???


Title: Re: Napoleon's 200th
Post by: Lionel Harrison on May 07, 2021, 11:11:50 am
It's always puzzled me as to why there was no strong tradition of purely orchestral works in France until Berlioz came along (choral and operatic yes, of course). Perhaps there was and I'm just totally unaware of it...

 ???
I'm just consulting my copy of A History of Western Music by Donald J. Grout (required reading in my university days); he writes:

"Paris became an important centre of composition and publication toward the middle of the eighteenth century; a consideable number of German and other foreign composers lived there. Works of the French School included symphonies and, particularly after 1770, a form known as the symphonie concertante, that is, a symphonic work employing two or more solo instruments in addition to the regular orchestra. One of the most noted composers of symphonies in France was a Belgian, François-Joseph Gossec (1734-1829), who came to Paris in 1751 and who afterwards succeeded Rameau as conductor of La Poupelinière's orchestra. Gossec published his first symphonies in 1754.... Among the many composers of symphonies concertantes was Giovanni Giuseppe Cambini (1746-1825), an Italian living at Paris; and a large number of native French composers also participated in the extraordinary flowering of this type of composition in the last quarter of the eighteenth century."


One of those composers of symphonies concertantes not named by Grout was, of course, Joseph Bo(u)logne, Chevalier de Saint-Georges (1745-1799). Gossec wrote a large number of symphonies; enough, it seems to have absolved other French composers of the responsibility of bothering to do so!


Title: Re: Napoleon's 200th
Post by: Albion on May 07, 2021, 11:16:04 am
Thanks, Lionel. It still seems as though Berlioz was the truly pioneering figure in so many ways...

 ;D


Title: Re: Napoleon's 200th
Post by: Lionel Harrison on May 07, 2021, 11:18:59 am
Thanks, Lionel. It seems as though Berlioz was a truly pioneering figure in so many ways...

 ;D

Indeed he was. I shouldn't have known all that stuff without consulting old Grout!


Title: Re: Napoleon's 200th
Post by: Albion on May 07, 2021, 11:33:48 am
Thanks, Lionel. It seems as though Berlioz was a truly pioneering figure in so many ways...

 ;D

Indeed he was. I shouldn't have known all that stuff without consulting old Grout!

Grout was still a standard text when I was at University in the 1980s. I doubt he is now.

 :(

Do students have to read actual books these days? Turning a page must be such an alien concept to many of them...

 ::)


Title: Re: Napoleon's 200th
Post by: Lionel Harrison on May 07, 2021, 11:38:35 am
Thanks, Lionel. It seems as though Berlioz was a truly pioneering figure in so many ways...

 ;D

Indeed he was. I shouldn't have known all that stuff without consulting old Grout!

Grout was still a standard text when I was at University in the 1980s. I doubt he is now.

 :(

Do students have to read actual books these days? Turning a page must be such an alien concept to many of them...

 ::)

I can hear them asking, "Book? What's a book?"


Title: Re: Napoleon's 200th
Post by: Albion on May 07, 2021, 11:40:10 am
I can hear them asking, "Book? What's a book?"

Ask Alexa!

 ::) ::) ::)

 :D


Title: Re: Napoleon's 200th
Post by: Lionel Harrison on May 07, 2021, 11:43:47 am
I can hear them asking, "Book? What's a book?"

Ask Alexa!

 ::) ::) ::)

 :D
::) :(


Title: Re: Napoleon's 200th
Post by: Albion on May 07, 2021, 11:50:56 am
I can hear them asking, "Book? What's a book?"

Ask Alexa!

 ::) ::) ::)

 :D
::) :(

Do you think if we ask her very nicely she'd email CPO regarding recording Potter and Holbrooke (and Cowen)?

 ???


Title: Re: Napoleon's 200th
Post by: Lionel Harrison on May 07, 2021, 11:58:02 am
I can hear them asking, "Book? What's a book?"

Ask Alexa!

 ::) ::) ::)

 :D
::) :(

Do you think if we ask her very nicely, she'd email CPO regarding recording Potter and Holbrooke (and Cowen)?

 ???
Somehow, I think she'd be confused by such a request. I just replaced Grout in his appointed place on my shelf between William Lovelock's The Examination Fugue and Owen Swindale's Polyphonic Composition. What a walk down Memory Lane that was...


Title: Re: Napoleon's 200th
Post by: Albion on May 07, 2021, 12:03:01 pm
William Lovelock's The Examination Fugue and Owen Swindale's Polyphonic Composition.

Hmm, not familiar with either of these rib-ticklers. Are there pretty pictures to look at - I do so struggle with words...

 ;)


Title: Re: Napoleon's 200th
Post by: Lionel Harrison on May 07, 2021, 12:10:15 pm
William Lovelock's The Examination Fugue and Owen Swindale's Polyphonic Composition.

Hmm, not familiar with either of these rib-ticklers. Are there pretty pictures to look at - I do so struggle with words...

 ;)

 :D No pictures as such but plenty of little dots and squiggles!


Title: Re: Napoleon's 200th
Post by: Albion on May 07, 2021, 12:38:27 pm
No pictures as such but plenty of little dots and squiggles!

Oo, now I do like those...

(https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.243011280.2995/sticker,220x200-bg,ffffff-pad,220x200,ffffff.jpg)

 :D