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MUSIC OF ALL ERAS => Individual composers => Topic started by: Albion on January 27, 2021, 11:31:02 pm



Title: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on January 27, 2021, 11:31:02 pm
I have long been a fan of C-T's music and strongly recommend the complete recording of The Song of Hiawatha, Op.30 (1898-1900), the Ballade in A minor, Op.33 (1898) and the Symphonic Variations on an African Air, Op.63 (1906), all recorded originally on Decca/ Argo, together with the Violin Concerto, Op.80 (1912) on either Hyperion or Lyrita.

 :)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on January 28, 2021, 07:10:07 am
Here is an interesting documentary on Coleridge-Taylor's relationship with America:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HebDy-sLdCs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HebDy-sLdCs)

 :)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: jimfin on January 28, 2021, 12:27:20 pm
I love a great deal of his music. I would make a special mention of the Clarinet Quintet, whose slow movement in particular is absolutely exquisite.The Violin Concerto I think shows what he might have done had he lived longer.


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on January 28, 2021, 12:44:16 pm
I love a great deal of his music. I would make a special mention of the Clarinet Quintet, whose slow movement in particular is absolutely exquisite.The Violin Concerto I think shows what he might have done had he lived longer.

It's a toss-up for the Violin Concerto: with Hyperion you get the Arthur Somervell Concerto (1930) as a companion, with Lyrita you get C-T's equally lovely Legend, Op.14 (1897) and Romance, Op.39 (1899)...

 ::)

Go on, you know you really want both discs.

 ;)

Also, try to listen to the rhapsodic dance The Bamboula, Op.75 (1910) which was recorded, alongside a splendid performance of Hiawatha's Wedding Feast with Kenneth Alwyn conducting the Bournemouth SO, by EMI back in 1984.

 :)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: JimL on January 29, 2021, 02:14:11 am
I just recently heard a performance of his Nonet on the local radio out here in Charlotte (WDAV out of Davidson College) and was wowed by a work that he composed when he was all of 18.


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on January 29, 2021, 05:40:53 am
I just recently heard a performance of his Nonet on the local radio out here in Charlotte (WDAV out of Davidson College) and was wowed by a work that he composed when he was all of 18.

As with that of his even-more-short-lived friend William Hurlstone (1876-1906), Coleridge-Taylor's chamber music is highly accomplished and extremely attractive.

There is an invaluable Ph.D thesis on Coleridge-Taylor by Catherine Carr (Durham University, 2005) in which the author describes how her research unearthed the previously-thought-lost opera Thelma.

 :)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Chriskh on January 29, 2021, 12:25:31 pm
Very interesting. Would it be possible to have details of the performers? I'm particularly curious about the Sorrow Songs, since some time ago I recorded on Sheva, with a mezzo-soprano, what I believed was the first recording of this cycle, so is yours from a disc I didn't know about or from a broadcast? In any case, I would be glad to know who the excellent tenor is. The cycle was also sung at the Wigmore Hall last year by Elizabeth Llewellen. A gorgeous voice but all a bit too fast and easy-flowing for me.


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on January 29, 2021, 01:37:21 pm
Very interesting. Would it be possible to have details of the performers? I'm particularly curious about the Sorrow Songs, since some time ago I recorded on Sheva, with a mezzo-soprano, what I believed was the first recording of this cycle, so is yours from a disc I didn't know about or from a broadcast? In any case, I would be glad to know who the excellent tenor is. The cycle was also sung at the Wigmore Hall last year by Elizabeth Llewellen. A gorgeous voice but all a bit too fast and easy-flowing for me.

Hi Chris, it is from a 1985 broadcast - details are in the Catalogue of the British and Irish Music Archive housed within this forum (see my initial post in British and Irish Music on the Downloads (by nationality) board, follow the mediafire link and scroll down to the bottom of the folder).

If you are indeed Chris Howell, as an excellent pianist and staunch advocate of British music you are very welcome on the forum! Would you consider a disc (or discs) of Cowen's piano music and transcriptions: The Months, A Phantasy of Life and Love, Coronation March, Four Dances in the Olden Style, A Suite of Old English Dances and In Fairyland (I have added all these to IMSLP). I also have copies of The Language of Flowers Suites 1 and 2 but haven't uploaded these as I cannot scan folio-size. I've only recently managed to find a copy of Book 4 (October to December) of The Months...

 :)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Chriskh on January 29, 2021, 06:17:44 pm
Yes, I am the Chris Howell of the various discs of Stanford, Mackenzie and a few others.

I'd certainly be interested in doing some Cowen. It's great news that you've found the last volume of The Months, but is it on IMSLP yet? This would surely have to be the centrepiece of any Cowen CD.


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on January 29, 2021, 06:27:23 pm
Hi Chris, great to hear from you again. I've just found a copy of Book 4 online and ordered it to complete my set, although with the way things are it may be some time before it arrives - they are lovely and often quite challenging pieces which I enjoy playing myself.

Nobody seems to know if they were originally conceived for piano and then orchestrated or vice versa, but either way they are certainly worth reviving.

The transcriptions (e.g. those of A Phantasy of Life and Love and the Theme and Variations finale from A Suite of Old English Dances) are a bit of a handful but idiomatic for the keyboard, and were apparently often made by Cowen himself, as were the vocal scores of the choral works and operas. This is music that deserves to be heard in whatever form it can be presented...

 :)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on February 05, 2021, 04:07:24 am
I have been listening to Sargent's 1930 recording of Coleridge-Taylor's Death of Minnehaha. Almost every page of it paints heart-rending emotions and images that -- I admit it unashamedly -- leave me completely wrung out. Give me Coleridge-Taylor rather than any amount of over-blown verismo opera any day!

Over two successive issues of the Musical Times (November-December 1899) August Jaeger ("Nimrod") published a detailed and gushing analysis. When Elgar become jealous of Coleridge-Taylor's success and cast him off, Jaeger followed suit.

Reviewing the first performance at the North Staffordshire Festival in the December issue, "Our Special Correspondent" reported that

"There was a Gargantuan programme that lasted four hours by the clock, and 'The Death of Minnehaha' came last. Yet such was the spell that Mr. Coleridge-Taylor's music cast over the large audience that not a soul, from her Grace the Duchess of Sutherland to the humblest amateur in the gallery, moved before the last chord of this beautiful work was drowned in a spontaneous and splendid ovation for the happy young composer. This little work worked a great wonder: we saw grey-bearded critics moved to tears, and there were many in the audience who made no attempt to hide their emotion. Whoever can do this with the force of his simple melodies is no ordinary musician. We seem to posses in Mr. Taylor that rara avis, a new and original melodist. A new melodist!"

No wonder that Sullivan, after hearing the first performance of Hiawatha's Wedding Feast under Stanford at the RCM in 1898, noted in his diary that he was

"Much impressed by the lad's genius. He is a composer not a music-maker. The music is fresh and original - he has melody and harmony in abundance, and his scoring is brilliant and full of colour [coming from Sullivan this was some compliment] - at times luscious, rich and sensual."

Similar public responses (especially in America) greeted The Atonement, the Five Choral Ballads and A Tale of Old Japan...

 :)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on February 05, 2021, 10:10:46 am
[
Similar public responses (especially in America) greeted The Atonement, the Five Choral Ballads and A Tale of Old Japan...

 :)

It's good to know that there are a few of us advocates for Coleridge-Taylor out there. I like to think that my late friend and partner in publishing, Patrick Meadows, and I had a little to do with the recent resurgence in interest in SC-T's music, having produced full scores and parts of several of his works that were languishing in manuscript. Had Patrick not taken his farewell in 2017, we might have got around to investigating The Atonement. Although printed string parts exist, we couldn't track down the rest of the performing materals and assumed that they had gone the way of much of Novello's hire library. However, the manuscript of the full score is extant so there would have been no bar to producing sets of band parts. Likewise, A Tale of Old Japan, although rumor has it that those parts did survive and are hiding somewhere. The orchestral vesion of the Five Choral Ballads is probably a lost cause, however. The work was published by Breitkopf & Härtel and it's likely that all performing materials were destroyed in World War II bombing. I know that some of B&H's archival materials are in the State Archives in Leipzig (part of the Saxon State Archives) but I have never investigated whether SC-T's manuscript or parts are there. With Patrick gone and my eye-sight and attention spans both diminshing with increasing age, there'd be no point. Maybe someone younger can pick up this baton.

On the subject of "younger", it has done my old heart good to see what Chi-chi Nwanoku has done in her founding of the Chineke! orchestra. Given their Mission, "to provide outstanding career opportunities to established and up-and-coming Black and ethnically diverse classical musicians in the UK and Europe", it's not surprising that they have been doing their bit for SC-T. For example, there's  a blistering performance of the op 33 Ballade in A Minor conducted by Wayne Marshall on Youtube that everyone should hear!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKtIbkP3tgM


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on February 05, 2021, 11:44:41 am
I had a little to do with the recent resurgence in interest in SC-T's music, having produced full scores and parts of several of his works that were languishing in manuscript. Maybe someone younger can pick up this baton

Bless you, Lionel, for all this hard work over the years. I've contacted the Longfellow Chorus in the USA to see if they would be interested in commissioning a re-orchestration of all of the Five Choral Ballads along the lines of that which has been done for The Quadroon Girl...

 :)

There is a large amount of C-T at the RCM in addition manuscripts (mostly ex-Novello, as you say - another publisher culpable for wanton destruction, vide Lewis Foreman, full score proofs annotated by Dvorak, etc., put out for the bin-men). So, as in another thread, we must be eternally grateful for a published vocal score...

 :o

For the baton to be passed, reliable information has to be disseminated...

 ;)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on February 05, 2021, 11:53:32 am
we might have got around to investigating The Atonement. Although printed string parts exist, we couldn't track down the rest of the performing materals and assumed that they had gone the way of much of Novello's hire library.

As you know, it was customary to print string parts simply because of the large number required for a full orchestra, but all the rest were usually hand-copied: whenever I encounter a vocal score (which is fairly often, lol), as advertised by the original publisher, I always dread the line "wind parts in MS"...

 ::)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on February 05, 2021, 12:18:06 pm
we might have got around to investigating The Atonement. Although printed string parts exist, we couldn't track down the rest of the performing materals and assumed that they had gone the way of much of Novello's hire library.

As you know, it was customary to print string parts simply because of the large number required for a full orchestra, but all the rest were usually hand-copied: whenever I encounter a vocal score (which is fairly often, lol), as advertised by the original publisher, I always dread the line "wind parts in MS"...

 ::)
Tell me about it!  >:(


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on February 05, 2021, 12:35:48 pm

Bless you, Lionel, for all this hard work over the years. I've contacted the Longfellow Chorus in the USA to see if they would be interested in commissioning a re-orchestration of all of the Five Choral Ballads along the lines of that which has been done for The Quadroon Girl...

 :)

It was a labour of love for both of us. Over the years we completed 35 such projects, 11 of them SC-T's (including the mammoth enterprise of producing a full score, vocal score, libretto and band parts of Themla).


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on February 05, 2021, 12:41:25 pm
It was a labour of love for both of us. Over the years we completed 35 such projects, 11 of them SC-T's (including the mammoth enterprise of producing a full score, vocal score, libretto and band parts of Thelma).

I would dearly love to hear Thelma. Catherine Carr's thesis is excellent in explaining the background and how she "found" the score. Thank the stars for such diligent research!

 :)



Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on February 05, 2021, 03:30:37 pm
It was a labour of love for both of us. Over the years we completed 35 such projects, 11 of them SC-T's (including the mammoth enterprise of producing a full score, vocal score, libretto and band parts of Thelma).

I would dearly love to hear Thelma. Catherine Carr's thesis is excellent in explaining the background and how she "found" the score. Thank the stars for such diligent research!

 :)


I couldn't agree more about Catherine Carr's research.  (I have had the pleasure of meeting Catherine, and a very nice person she is.)

Of course, I have only heard Thelma in my mind's ear, as it were, but having been immersed in it twelve hours a day for months on end, I think I have a pretty accurate aural image of it and I have to say that I think it's as fine a piece as SC-T ever wrote. Technically, it's very assured, of course; nowhere does it sag in interest and there are some truly glorious passages that achieve the same levels of inspiration as Hiawatha, the Symphonic Variations and the Tale of Old Japan. The plot is ridiclous, of course, but no more so than that of many an opera in the standard repertoire!


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on February 05, 2021, 03:49:47 pm
I have only heard Thelma in my mind's ear, as it were, but having been immersed in it twelve hours a day for months on end, I think I have a pretty accurate aural image of it and I have to say that I think it's as fine a piece as SC-T ever wrote. Technically, it's very assured, of course; nowhere does it sag in interest and there are some truly glorious passages that achieve the same levels of inspiration as Hiawatha, the Symphonic Variations and the Tale of Old Japan. The plot is ridiculous, of course, but no more so than that of many an opera in the standard repertoire!

Lionel, that counts as a ringing endorsement of Thelma, which is no less than I would expect!

 ;)

I've never much bothered about opera plots, it's the music that I care about. The Symphonic Variations on an African Air, Op.63 should be standard repertoire...

 :)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on February 05, 2021, 05:52:20 pm
The Symphonic Variations on an African Air, Op.63 should be standard repertoire...

 :)
I quite agree (surprise surprise). Apart from the noble beauty of the theme, the brilliance of SC-T's orchestration and the kaleidoscopic nature of the transformations through which he puts that theme, it's the subtlety of the structure of the piece that sets it apart. I think he called it 'Symphonic' for the reason that it's not just a set of numbered variations: in fact, it's quite difficult to say how many variations there are -- different analyses come up with different figures -- but rather, he elides variation procedures with internal ternary forms and the result comes out as something approaching an overall sonata-form structure. I know of no other work like it and while I enjoy the Enigma Variations as much as the next person, I do so wish that just occasionally, an enterprising conductor would substitute the Symphonic Variations for that ubiqitous Elgar piece. I recall being in Birmingham in (I think) 2005 and seeing a poster for a CBSO concert indicating that Sakari Oromo programmed the Symphonic Variations one evening. Sadly, I was due back in London before the gig and I don't know if he's ever conducted it since. I suppose we must at least be grateful for Grant Llewellyn's recording with Royal Liverpool Phil. which is, I think, a fine interpretation with good sonics. I'm sure (well, I'm hopeful anyway) that Chineke! wiill programme it one day. 


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: cilgwyn on February 05, 2021, 05:54:32 pm
I quite like that sort of painting. I'm no expert,though!! ::)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on February 05, 2021, 06:18:53 pm
I quite like that sort of painting. I'm no expert,though!! ::)

"Victorian" or "titillating"? No matter, there's plenty more to come! Just something to look at whilst listening...

 ;D


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on February 05, 2021, 06:29:41 pm
I recall being in Birmingham in (I think) 2005 and seeing a poster for a CBSO concert indicating that Sakari Oromo programmed the Symphonic Variations one evening. Sadly, I was due back in London before the gig and I don't know if he's ever conducted it since.

"Of even greater interest was the balancing of Samuel Coleridge-Taylor's Symphonic Variations on an African Air Op. 63, which opened the evening, with Schumann's Spring Symphony which closed it. While Coleridge-Taylor's choice of variation form was influenced by Parry, Elgar and Delius, the choice of theme reflected his own black heritage - he was the son of a Sierra Leone doctor and an English mother. Yet it was his undisguised admiration of Dvorak that emerged most strongly in Sakari Oramo's performance, richly lyrical and thoroughly convincing."

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2005/mar/19/classicalmusicandopera2 (https://www.theguardian.com/music/2005/mar/19/classicalmusicandopera2)

Influenced by Delius, eh? Hmmmmm...

 ;)

Nevertheless a positive review.

 ;D


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: cilgwyn on February 05, 2021, 06:52:18 pm
I quite like that sort of painting. I'm no expert,though!! ::)

"Victorian" or "titillating"? No matter, there's plenty more to come! Just something to look at whilst listening...

 ;D
Oops! Wrong thread! :-[ Apologies! ::) This is what comes of posting at tea time!


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on February 05, 2021, 07:16:48 pm
I recall being in Birmingham in (I think) 2005 and seeing a poster for a CBSO concert indicating that Sakari Oromo programmed the Symphonic Variations one evening. Sadly, I was due back in London before the gig and I don't know if he's ever conducted it since.

"Of even greater interest was the balancing of Samuel Coleridge-Taylor's Symphonic Variations on an African Air Op. 63, which opened the evening, with Schumann's Spring Symphony which closed it. While Coleridge-Taylor's choice of variation form was influenced by Parry, Elgar and Delius, the choice of theme reflected his own black heritage - he was the son of a Sierra Leone doctor and an English mother. Yet it was his undisguised admiration of Dvorak that emerged most strongly in Sakari Oramo's performance, richly lyrical and thoroughly convincing."

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2005/mar/19/classicalmusicandopera2 (https://www.theguardian.com/music/2005/mar/19/classicalmusicandopera2)

Influenced by Delius, eh? Hmmmmm...

 ;)

Nevertheless a positive review.

 ;D
Yes, encouragingly positive. Thanks very much for digging that out. Like you, I'm not sure why the reviewer dragged Delius into it. I have to admit that Delius is one of my blind spots. Undoubtedly there are passages of great beauty in many of his works but his structures often seem so ramshackle and jerry-built as to be almost unintelligble to me. The seeming lack of logic diminishes the beauties because they don't form part of a greater whole but just float about without any real purpose -- neither repose nor climax (fish, fowl nor good red herring!) Still, who am I to disgree with Beecham?

Interesting point the reviewer makes about putting the 2nd fiddles on the right and the cellos on the left. Once upon a time this was standard, so people could hear clearly the counterpoints between first and second fiddles, which are so much a feature of classical and romantic orchestral practice. In fact, Sir Adrian Boult (for one) always insisted on that layout.


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on February 05, 2021, 08:04:44 pm
Oops! Wrong thread! :-[ Apologies! ::) This is what comes of posting at tea time!

I love it! Just post anything anywhere you fancy - I'll find 'em...

 :D :D :D


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on February 05, 2021, 08:10:18 pm
I have to admit that Delius is one of my blind spots.

I love the Florida Suite, Koanga, Brigg Fair, Paris and On the Mountains. I've never got on with the Mass of Life, not helped by enduring a bum-clenchingly dire Three Choirs Festival rendition about 20 years ago...

(https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.iOg_gjyLiwXh3TsWkTb4zgHaDx?pid=Api&rs=1)

 ::)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: cilgwyn on February 05, 2021, 08:56:54 pm
A Mass of Life? Indeed! I've got nowhere with that one! North Country Sketches and Eventyr are favourites. I usually enjoy the recordings Beecham made. Not so keen on some of the choral works. I like A Village Romeo and Juliet,though. Although,I can't say I listen to it allot!


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: cilgwyn on February 05, 2021, 09:30:42 pm
Back to Samuel Taylor Coleridge! ;D :) (I sound like a certain other forum,saying that! ;D)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on February 05, 2021, 10:19:02 pm
Back to Samuel Taylor Coleridge! ;D :) (I sound like a certain other forum,saying that! ;D)
Aaaaaarrrrggggggghhh! [exits screaming]


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on February 05, 2021, 10:30:37 pm
Back to Samuel Taylor Coleridge! ;D :) (I sound like a certain other forum,saying that! ;D)

Aaaaaarrrrggggggghhh! [exits screaming]

(https://secure.i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02127/victorian-school_2127557a.jpg)

 :D


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on February 05, 2021, 11:25:03 pm
Tee-hee!


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: cilgwyn on February 06, 2021, 05:18:08 pm
Back to Samuel Taylor Coleridge! ;D :) (I sound like a certain other forum,saying that! ;D)
Platoon roll call! Ay-uuuup! (In Sgt Bilko's voice) ;D


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: patmos.beje on February 10, 2021, 07:29:59 pm
I discovered Coleridge-Taylor’s Hiawatha in 1998, fresh from discovering Dyson’s The Canterbury Pilgrims.  Both these pieces were two of the highlights of musical discoveries in 1998, a year that was particularly good for CD releases (albeit both pieces were from previous years).  Part 1 of Hiawatha is delightful from start to finish.

I longed to hear his Violin Concerto and for many years I often looked on the internet in the hope of finding a CD release date.  The release eventually came in 2004. It proved to be a big disappointment to me, perhaps my expectations were too high.  I suppose I was hoping for the memorable lyricism of Part 1 of Hiawatha and, for me, the Violin Concerto did not match this.  The later Lyrita CD release of all his works for Violin and Orchestra is a better recording.


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on February 10, 2021, 08:00:16 pm
I longed to hear his Violin Concerto and for many years I often looked on the internet in the hope of finding a CD release date.  The release eventually came in 2004. It proved to be a big disappointment to me, perhaps my expectations were too high.  I suppose I was hoping for the memorable lyricism of Part 1 of Hiawatha and, for me, the Violin Concerto did not match this.  The later Lyrita CD release of all his works for Violin and Orchestra is a better recording.
I quite agree that Lorraine Mc Aslan and the LPO under Nicholas Braithwaite give a better performance (in a better recording) than Philippe Graffin with Johannesburg PO under Michael Hankinson (which I'm guessing is the one you first found). The Lyrita has more sweep and power althogether. Incidentally, it was recorded before the Graffin version but it was at that time when Lyrita underwent a hiatus in issuing stuff and it didn't hit the streets until much later.

I think part of the problem you may have experienced is the expectation that the title 'Violin Concerto' conjures up; even the work's dedicatee, Maud Powell, said that it was a pity there wasn't a better description for it. It's too big to be a 'concertino' but neither is it a 'suite'. No, it's definitely a concerto but in 1912 that word seemed to imply something like Elgar's magisterial utterance but, of course, Coleridge-Taylor was trying to do something rather different. The initial plan was to build it around spirituals but, like Topsy, it growed. 


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on February 10, 2021, 08:13:19 pm
I think part of the problem you may have experienced is the expectation that the title 'Violin Concerto' conjures up; even the work's dedicatee, Maud Powell, said that it was a pity there wasn't a better description for it. It's too big to be a 'concertino' but neither is it a 'suite'.

A parallel is, perhaps, Sullivan's splendid and pioneering "Cello Concerto" (1866) which was frequently referred to as a "Concertino" during his lifetime...

 :)

Thank the stars for Charles Mackerras's phenomenal memory in collaborating on the reconstruction (in 1986) of Sullivan's score based on his 1953 performance (before the score was burnt in the 1964 catastrophic Chappell & Co. warehouse fire)...

 ::)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on February 10, 2021, 10:00:33 pm
I think part of the problem you may have experienced is the expectation that the title 'Violin Concerto' conjures up; even the work's dedicatee, Maud Powell, said that it was a pity there wasn't a better description for it. It's too big to be a 'concertino' but neither is it a 'suite'.

A parallel is, perhaps, Sullivan's splendid and pioneering "Cello Concerto" (1866) which was frequently referred to as a "Concertino" during his lifetime...

 :)

Thank the stars for Charles Mackerras's phenomenal memory in collaborating on the reconstruction (in 1986) of Sullivan's score based on his 1953 performance (before the score was burnt in the 1964 catastrophic Chappell & Co. warehouse fire)...

 ::)

That's quite uncanny, John. I was thinking about Mackerras and Sullivan's concerto only this morning. Its proportions are quite peculiar in that the first movement is only about three-and-a-half minutes long whereas the second and third are both twice that. It is, indeed, much more like a 'Concertino' or what our German friends would call a 'Konzertstück' (the title that Schumann originally gave to his cello concerto, oddly enough). The first movement is in the nature of an introduction to the rest of the piece, rather than a movement in its own right. The same does not apply to Coleridge-Taylor's concerto, however, the movements of which are 'regular size' (in the McAslan recording, 12'15"; 8'34"; and 12'03" respectively) and so it's not really a question of size but more one of character.

I suppose I was hoping for the memorable lyricism of Part 1 of Hiawatha and, for me, the Violin Concerto did not match this.

I am somewhat surprised by your finding a lack of lyricism in the piece, though. The slow movement seems to me nothing if not lyrical but hey, as my old mother used to say, "It wouldn't do if we were all the same!" Let's be honest, though; Hiawatha's Wedding Feast was a bl**dy hard act to follow!



Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: patmos.beje on February 11, 2021, 12:07:51 am
Thanks for the observations about the Violin Concerto.  Yes, it was the recording by Philippe Graffin I first heard and, yes, I was aware the Lyrita version was recorded earlier.

In the early 2000s I had a list of about 20 works I longed to hear, ranging from Concertos to Operas and choral pieces etc.  Most of these I have now heard and the majority lived up to my expectations.  Two that did not were McEwen’s Viola Concerto and Coleridge Taylor’s Violin Concerto.  The former is easy to explain.  McEwen’s impressionism and Scottish influences were what appealed to me about his music.  His Viola Concerto lacks both.  Whilst subsequent listenings created a more favourable impression, at the time of writing I don’t recall a note of it.

In relation to the Coleridge Taylor Violin Concerto, I had no expectations in terms of structure or the ambition of the Concerto. Basically the music did not appeal to me to the extent I had anticipated.

Unlike the McEwen Concerto, I can recall parts of the Coleridge Taylor Violin Concerto and can see its merits, something confirmed by at least 4 recordings. I am not denying that the work is lyrical and is a fine piece but in a genre where there is great competition there are many others I prefer.  Coleridge Taylor for me will always be associated with Hiawatha in particular Hiawatha’s Wedding Feast which, indeed, was a hard act to follow.  ;) :) ;D


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on February 11, 2021, 09:31:04 am

In the early 2000s I had a list of about 20 works I longed to hear, ranging from Concertos to Operas and choral pieces etc.  Most of these I have now heard and the majority lived up to my expectations.  Two that did not were McEwen’s Viola Concerto and Coleridge Taylor’s Violin Concerto.  The former is easy to explain.  McEwen’s impressionism and Scottish influences were what appealed to me about his music.  His Viola Concerto lacks both.  Whilst subsequent listenings created a more favourable impression, at the time of writing I don’t recall a note of it.

I had exactly the same reaction as you to McEwen's Viola Concerto. If a player as gifted as Lawrence Power can't "bring it off the page", especialy with Martyn Brabbins on the rostrum, nobody could.  The saving grace of that CD was the lovely performance of Camp Flossie they put on as a filler.  ;)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on April 03, 2021, 05:20:56 pm
Who'd've thought it? Certainly I wouldn't 'back in the day'. Onward and upward (but not to Narnia) one hopes.

https://www.classicfm.com/composers/coleridge-taylor-s/long-forgotten-english-composer-comeback-hall-of-fame/  (https://www.classicfm.com/composers/coleridge-taylor-s/long-forgotten-english-composer-comeback-hall-of-fame/)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on May 01, 2021, 04:57:24 pm
With regard to the Solemn Prelude (1899), projected for revival at the 2021 Three Choirs Festival, the piano transcription at IMSLP looks very promising (see Lionel Harrison's post in the 2021 Three Choirs Festival thread) -

https://imslp.org/wiki/Solemn_Prelude%2C_Op.40_(Coleridge-Taylor%2C_Samuel) (https://imslp.org/wiki/Solemn_Prelude%2C_Op.40_(Coleridge-Taylor%2C_Samuel))

 :)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on May 04, 2021, 07:21:45 pm
Regarding Coleridge-Taylor's Zara's Ear-Rings for soprano and orchestra, Op.7 (1895) the title has always intrigued me. Nowadays I suppose it would be Tracey's Tattoo...

 ::)

Meanwhile, if you have access to JSTOR (all you need is a valid email address to access 100 articles per month) I would recommend this:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3181605?read-now=1&refreqid=excelsior%3A7a0bd7de6b7b9c7045a15761ebbae9c2&seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents (https://www.jstor.org/stable/3181605?read-now=1&refreqid=excelsior%3A7a0bd7de6b7b9c7045a15761ebbae9c2&seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents)

 :)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on May 04, 2021, 07:46:27 pm
Regarding Coleridge-Taylor's Zara's Ear-Rings for soprano and orchestra, Op.7 (1895) the title has always intrigued me. Nowadays I suppose it would be Tracey's Tattoo...

 ::)

Meanwhile, if you have access to JSTOR (all you need is a valid email address to access 100 articles per month) I would recommend this:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3181605?read-now=1&refreqid=excelsior%3A7a0bd7de6b7b9c7045a15761ebbae9c2&seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents (https://www.jstor.org/stable/3181605?read-now=1&refreqid=excelsior%3A7a0bd7de6b7b9c7045a15761ebbae9c2&seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents)

 :)
Tracey's Tattoo? What a distressing thought!

Thanks for the tip. I have registered at JSTOR (dunno why I didn't do it before). I have Geoffrey Self's biography of SC-T The Hiawatha Man but I expect this article will contain other details and so I shall read it with extreme interest!


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on May 04, 2021, 09:11:37 pm
Tracey's Tattoo? What a distressing thought!

Say hello to our latest member, Tracey...

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/50/d3/7d/50d37d389876815c8f3c1a17a3e07678.jpg)

 :o

Is that a quotation from Coleridge-Taylor? Looks more like a snippet from the closing section of Tchaikovsky's Marche slave to me...

 ;D


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on May 05, 2021, 08:41:34 am
Tracey's Tattoo? What a distressing thought!

Say hello to our latest member, Tracey...

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/50/d3/7d/50d37d389876815c8f3c1a17a3e07678.jpg)

 :o

Is that a quotation from Coleridge-Taylor? Looks more like a snippet from the closing section of Tchaikovsky's Marche slave to me...

 ;D

No, it's the Méditation from Massenet's Thighs.  :D ::)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on May 05, 2021, 08:57:35 am
No, it's the Méditation from Massenet's Thighs.  :D ::)

 ;)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on May 05, 2021, 10:12:26 am
No, it's the Méditation from Massenet's Thighs.  :D ::)

 ;)
Sorry, that was awful.


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on May 06, 2021, 03:17:29 pm
There is so much more of Coleridge-Taylor's music still to explore: major choral works such as Meg Blane, The Atonement, Kubla Khan and A Tale of Old Japan. I would especially be interested in hearing his incidental music beyond Othello (1911), particularly those scores which he wrote for plays by Stephen Phillips (1864-1915)...

(https://cdn.britannica.com/17/25717-004-8CC1CC94.jpg)

...Herod (1900), Ulysses (1901-02), Nero (1906) and Faust (1908). Unfortunately, much of the material (as happens so often with incidental music) appears to be lost.

 >:(

But what was published looks very promising.

 :)



Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on May 06, 2021, 03:37:43 pm
There is so much more of Coleridge-Taylor's music still to explore: major choral works such as Meg Blane, The Atonement, Kubla Khan and A Tale of Old Japan. I would especially be interested in hearing his incidental music beyond Othello (1911), particularly those scores which he wrote for plays by Stephen Phillips (1864-1915)...

(https://cdn.britannica.com/17/25717-004-8CC1CC94.jpg)

...Herod (1900), Ulysses (1901-02), Nero (1906) and Faust (1908).

 :)

Unfortunately, much of the material (as happens so often with incidental music) appears to be lost.

 >:(


Some of it was published but I don't know whether, in each case, it was in a form which has survived publishers' clear-outs. An orchestral suite from Herod was published by Augener & Co. and a song 'Sleep, sleep O King'  by Enoch. Of Ulysses, three numbers were issued by Novello; of Nero, a suite was again published by Novello and of Faust, a suite was published by Boosey & Co. The MS of Faust is in the British Library but it appears incompete.

It doesn't cetainly doesn't augur well for any revivals. Somebody with more fire left in their belly than I have might undertake some sleuthing around the libraries for any surviving performance materials.


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on May 06, 2021, 03:53:44 pm
Some of it was published but I don't know whether, in each case, it was in a form which has survived publishers' clear-outs. An orchestral suite from Herod was published by Augener & Co. and a song 'Sleep, sleep O King'  by Enoch. Of Ulysses, three numbers were issued by Novello; of Nero, a suite was again published by Novello and of Faust, a suite was published by Booset & Co. The MS of Faust is in the British Library but it appears incompete.

As with comparably high-profile incidental music by such major figures as Sullivan, German and Mackenzie, it is highly unlikely that anything else will come to light beyond what was published.

Theatres generally held onto scores and parts which were subsequently lost or destroyed. I presume this also happened to Sullivan's 1897 Alhambra ballet Victoria and Merrie England, luckily published in piano score and since re-orchestrated.

 :-\

Fortunately, many of Coleridge-Taylor's scores are now safely housed at the RCM -

https://www.rcm.ac.uk/media/Samuel%20Coleridge-Taylor.pdf (https://www.rcm.ac.uk/media/Samuel%20Coleridge-Taylor.pdf)

- as Lionel well-knows!!!

 :)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on May 06, 2021, 04:20:21 pm
As with comparably high-profile incidental music by such major figures as Sullivan, German and Mackenzie, it is highly unlikely that anything else will come to light, unfortunately

Sadly, you are probably correcct in that assumption


I presume this also happened to Sullivan's 1897 Alhambra ballet Victoria and Merrie England, luckily published in piano score and since re-orchestrated.


I think I recall reading that the MS of Victoria and Merrie England was destroyed in that fire at Chapell's but I could be wrong.


Luckily, many of Coleridge-Taylor's scores are safely housed at the RCM... as Lionel well-knows!
 :)
I certainly do!



Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on May 06, 2021, 04:30:43 pm


I presume this also happened to Sullivan's 1897 Alhambra ballet Victoria and Merrie England, luckily published in piano score and since re-orchestrated.


I think I recall reading that the MS of Victoria and Merrie England was destroyed in that fire at Chapell's but I could be wrong.

It was published by Metzler, so it must have vanished long before the towering inferno that was the Chappell tragedy.

 :o

The whole score was published for solo piano and three suites were also drawn from the ballet: the first survives in its original orchestral form and has been recorded a couple of times, but all three were published as piano duets (dedication copies from Sullivan to Mrs Ronalds are in the Pierpont Morgan Library, New York).

 :)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on May 06, 2021, 04:49:22 pm


I presume this also happened to Sullivan's 1897 Alhambra ballet Victoria and Merrie England, luckily published in piano score and since re-orchestrated.


I think I recall reading that the MS of Victoria and Merrie England was destroyed in that fire at Chapell's but I could be wrong.

It was published by Metzler, so it must have vanished long before the towering inferno that was the Chappell tragedy.

 :o

The whole score was published for solo piano and three suites were also drawn from the ballet: the first survives in its original orchestral form and has been recorded a couple of times, but all three were published as piano duets (dedication copies from Sullivan to Mrs Ronalds are in the Pierpont Morgan Library, New York).

 :)
Looks like I was wrong, then. It wasn't the first time and, unless I die in the next few minutes, it probably won't be the last!
 ;D


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on May 06, 2021, 05:08:30 pm
unless I die in the next few minutes, it probably won't be the last!
 ;D

Watch out for that fish-bone!

 :o

Boil-in-the-bag is much the safer option (lovely sauce too) and simpler to "cook" (i.e. boil-in-the bag, lol). I'm sure Coleridge-Taylor would have loved it...

 :D


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on May 06, 2021, 05:22:59 pm
unless I die in the next few minutes, it probably won't be the last!
 ;D

Watch out for that fish-bone!

 :o

Boil-in-the-bag is much the safer option (lovely sauce too) and simpler to "cook" (i.e. boil-in-the bag, lol). I'm sure Coleridge-Taylor would have loved it...

 :D
Thanks for the tip!


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on May 06, 2021, 05:31:32 pm
Thanks for the tip!

Yep, I'm AMF's own Fanny Cradock...

(https://deadladiesshow.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/cropped-fanny_cradock_allan_warren.jpg?w=525)

 :D



Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on May 06, 2021, 05:52:03 pm
Thanks for the tip!

Yep, I'm AMF's own Fanny Cradock...

(https://deadladiesshow.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/cropped-fanny_cradock_allan_warren.jpg?w=525)

 :D


What a dreadful thought. You are not in the least like that fearsome old boiler!


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on May 06, 2021, 06:01:28 pm
What a dreadful thought. You are not in the least like that fearsome old boiler-

in-the-bag.

(http://www.helengraves.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Hake-from-bag-768x459.jpg)

Yum-yum...

 ;D


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on May 06, 2021, 06:04:21 pm
What a dreadful thought. You are not in the least like that fearsome old boiler-

in-the-bag.

(http://www.helengraves.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Hake-from-bag-768x459.jpg)

Yum-yum...

 ;D
Looks delightful! Fortunately, I'm not allowed to do any of the cooking around here as my culinary skills do not come up to the standard required...  :-[


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on May 06, 2021, 06:32:03 pm
Looks delightful! Fortunately, I'm not allowed to do any of the cooking around here as my culinary skills do not come up to the standard required...  :-[

Coleridge-Taylor had the same problem - Jessie could be a dragon in the kitchen...

(https://i.pinimg.com/236x/1b/ed/26/1bed26b019dd5f669718ef95c0373d29--victorian-women-victorian-era.jpg)

...but her dumplings were much admired.

 :o

Damn, are we back on topic again?

 ;D


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on May 06, 2021, 06:49:16 pm
Looks delightful! Fortunately, I'm not allowed to do any of the cooking around here as my culinary skills do not come up to the standard required...  :-[

Coleridge-Taylor had the same problem - Jessie could be a dragon in the kitchen...

(https://i.pinimg.com/236x/1b/ed/26/1bed26b019dd5f669718ef95c0373d29--victorian-women-victorian-era.jpg)

 :o
Very true! They found it difficult to retain 'help'.


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on May 06, 2021, 07:05:43 pm
They found it difficult to retain 'help'.

I know, I have exactly the same problem...

(https://i.pinimg.com/474x/af/55/a7/af55a78654d364552733c26e452f15c9--victorian-photos-antique-photos.jpg)

...Florrie simply didn't cut the mustard (although she tried on several occasions with a rusty pen-knife)...

 ::)

...and her constant inconsequential chat about the perils of arsenic in the wallpaper eventually bored the poor dog to death (on second thoughts, that could well have been the arsenic in the wallpaper).

 :o


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on May 06, 2021, 07:14:17 pm
Damn, are we back on topic again?

It seemeth not yet...

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ed/93/3d/ed933d4e9ee6515ff8e8805b7e7e7cb8.jpg)

 ;)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on May 06, 2021, 07:40:45 pm
They found it difficult to retain 'help'.

I know, I have exactly the same problem...

(https://i.pinimg.com/474x/af/55/a7/af55a78654d364552733c26e452f15c9--victorian-photos-antique-photos.jpg)

...Florrie simply didn't cut the mustard (although she tried on several occasions)...

 ::)

...and her constant inconsequential chat about the perils of arsenic in the wallpaper eventually bored the poor dog to death (on second thoughts, that could well have been the arsenic in the wallpaper).

 :o
From her staring eyes, I'd venture to suggest that Florrie was cutting heroin rather than mustard.  :o


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on May 06, 2021, 07:50:59 pm
From her staring eyes, I'd venture to suggest that Florrie was cutting heroin rather than mustard.  :o

I always wondered why she often had that far-away look in her eyes. Yep, a definite smack-fiend...

 ::)

...heigh-ho! Hark, the next interviewee is at the door.

(https://media.istockphoto.com/photos/old-woman-is-knocking-at-the-neighbour-door-picture-id928240202?k=6&m=928240202&s=612x612&w=0&h=i3LkQAfpzHEBBecxmZn-FJFVs2AMRoYBzhlGOzLrkb8=)

She must be genning up - "yes, I like Potter, Korngold, Cowen, Schreker, Bantock, Ries and Holbrooke...yes, I like Potter, Korngold, Cowen, Schreker, Bantock, Ries and Holbrooke...yes, I like Potter, Korngold, Cowen, Schreker, Bantock, Ries and Holbrooke..."

 ;)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on May 07, 2021, 07:00:22 am
She must be genning up - "yes, I like Potter, Korngold, Cowen, Schreker, Bantock, Ries and Holbrooke..."

 ;)

...and Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912).

 ;)

Back on track (don't worry, it'll only be temporary).

 ;D


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on May 07, 2021, 09:01:07 am
She must be genning up - "yes, I like Potter, Korngold, Cowen, Schreker, Bantock, Ries and Holbrooke..."

 ;)

...and Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912).

 ;)

Back on track (don't worry, it'll only be temporary).

 ;D

Phew!


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on June 07, 2021, 06:07:35 pm
I've just had a squint at IMSLP, which I do daily in case anything interesting turns up and, by gum, it has today. The RCM has uploaded the holograph MS of the full score of the sacred cantata The Atonement which SC-T wrote in 1903 for the Three Choirs Festival (which took place in Hereford that year).  ;D

It's blocked pending copyright review at present, but as soon as it's cleared I shall be in there like a rat up a drainpipe to download it. Once upon a time Patrick and I would have been seeking permission to digitise and disseminate it but now that's a labour of love that must be left to others. I shall just knock the rust off my mind's ear and delight in reading it.


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on June 07, 2021, 08:23:11 pm
I've just had a squint at IMSLP, which I do daily in case anything interesting turns up and, by gum, it has today. The RCM has uploaded the holograph MS of the full score of the sacred cantata The Atonement which SC-T wrote in 1903 for the Three Choirs Festival (which took place in Hereford that year).  ;D

It's blocked pending copyright review at present, but as soon as it's cleared I shall be in there like a rat up a drainpipe to download it. Once upon a time Patrick and I would have been seeking permission to digitise and disseminate it but now that's a labour of love that must be left to others. I shall just knock the rust off my mind's ear and delight in reading it.]

I've got both editions of the VS, the "suppressed" 190pp with Ye Mighty Gods of Ancient Rome love duet for Pilate and his wife, and the 169pp "expurgated" version. I prefer the former!

 :D


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on June 07, 2021, 09:44:52 pm
I've just had a squint at IMSLP, which I do daily in case anything interesting turns up and, by gum, it has today. The RCM has uploaded the holograph MS of the full score of the sacred cantata The Atonement which SC-T wrote in 1903 for the Three Choirs Festival (which took place in Hereford that year).  ;D

It's blocked pending copyright review at present, but as soon as it's cleared I shall be in there like a rat up a drainpipe to download it. Once upon a time Patrick and I would have been seeking permission to digitise and disseminate it but now that's a labour of love that must be left to others. I shall just knock the rust off my mind's ear and delight in reading it.]

I've got both editions of the VS, the "suppressed" 190pp with Ye Mighty Gods of Ancient Rome love duet for Pilate and his wife, and the 169pp "expurgated" version. I prefer the former!

 :D

Well, naturally! Who wouldn't want 21 pages more SC-T?! I don't have either VS in physical form although I dowloaded the one that's at IMSLP (which is the unexpurgated version, fortunately). As the full score they've uploaded is dated 1903, I'm hoping that it's the full version too, although it's notated on the front with Novello's London address and so if we're unlucky, it might be the pruned version. We'll see when it's cleared copyright.


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on June 08, 2021, 12:30:59 pm
I've just had a squint at IMSLP, which I do daily in case anything interesting turns up and, by gum, it has today. The RCM has uploaded the holograph MS of the full score of the sacred cantata The Atonement which SC-T wrote in 1903 for the Three Choirs Festival (which took place in Hereford that year).  ;D

It's blocked pending copyright review at present, but as soon as it's cleared I shall be in there like a rat up a drainpipe to download it. Once upon a time Patrick and I would have been seeking permission to digitise and disseminate it but now that's a labour of love that must be left to others. I shall just knock the rust off my mind's ear and delight in reading it.]

I've got both editions of the VS, the "suppressed" 190pp with Ye Mighty Gods of Ancient Rome love duet for Pilate and his wife, and the 169pp "expurgated" version. I prefer the former!

 :D

Well, naturally! Who wouldn't want 21 pages more SC-T?! I don't have either VS in physical form although I dowloaded the one that's at IMSLP (which is the unexpurgated version, fortunately). As the full score they've uploaded is dated 1903, I'm hoping that it's the full version too, although it's notated on the front with Novello's London address and so if we're unlucky, it might be the pruned version. We'll see when it's cleared copyright.
It's blocked pending copyright review at present, but as soon as it's cleared I shall be in there like a rat up a drainpipe to download it. Once upon a time Patrick and I would have been seeking permission to digitise and disseminate it but now that's a labour of love that must be left to others. I shall just knock the rust off my mind's ear and delight in reading it.]

I hereby bequeath (being of unsound mind and body) both scores to you along with Florrie's renowned recipe for "magic macaroons"...

(https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/books/2017/04/21/TELEMMGLPICT000126210695_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqU3eMaYy0rqVTG7YvUgwhJhkW70DtfGX9qEYDiaIMx3s.jpeg?imwidth=450)

 :D


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on June 08, 2021, 12:48:54 pm

I hereby bequeath (being of unsound mind and body) both scores to you along with Florrie's renowned recipe for "magic macaroons"...

(https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/books/2017/04/21/TELEMMGLPICT000126210695_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqU3eMaYy0rqVTG7YvUgwhJhkW70DtfGX9qEYDiaIMx3s.jpeg?imwidth=450)

 :D

That's a very kind thought indeed. Regarding Florrie's "magic macaroons", I'm sure a couple of them will go down a treat with my 4 o'clock dish of Assam!  :)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on June 11, 2021, 10:26:06 am
I see the the RCM has now put a copyist's MS of The Atonement on IMSLP as well as the holograph. I have started perusing the latter which they put up on Monday and so far as I can tell, it is the original, complete version. There is a lengthy cut marked by chinagraph crosses at one point which I imagine must reflect the bowdlerised version. I'll see, once the copyist's MS has satisfied the copyright police, whether the passage indicated to be cut makes it into that version or not. In four of the five sections, the copyist's MS has a few more pages than the holograph but the Pontius Pilate section has a couple fewer. This suggests that, on the one hand, the copyist's script is rather less tiny than Coleridge's and, on the other, that there is a cut.

This will probably be of interest to no-one except Albion and me but it does at least mean that, should any enterprising group wish to perform or record The Atonement at some future date, they can do so (after a good deal of donkey work on preparing a printed score and parts). I'm not holding my breath, however, and I don't expect it will happen while I'm here to hear it!


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on June 11, 2021, 08:45:24 pm
I see the the RCM has now put a copyist's MS of The Atonement on IMSLP as well as the holograph. I have started perusing the latter which they put up on Monday and so far as I can tell, it is the original, complete version. There is a lengthy cut marked by chinagraph crosses at one point which I imagine must reflect the bowdlerised version. I'll see, once the copyist's MS has satisfied the copyright police, whether the passage indicated to be cut makes it into that version or not. In four of the five sections, the copyist's MS has a few more pages than the holograph but the Pontius Pilate section has a couple fewer. This suggests that, on the one hand, the copyist's script is rather less tiny than Coleridge's and, on the other, that there is a cut.

This will probably be of interest to no-one except Albion and me but it does at least mean that, should any enterprising group wish to perform or record The Atonement at some future date, they can do so (after a good deal of donkey work on preparing a printed score and parts). I'm not holding my breath, however, and I don't expect it will happen while I'm here to hear it!

Coleridge-Taylor's handwriting was notoriouisly spidery, as was Holbrooke's and equaully hard to deceipher. Evenings with a bright shiny threepence in in Florrie's kirtle were spent "no noubt hours pouring over many an a anarachnid holograph at the BL, RAM, RCM or the Bodleian....

 :D





Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on August 11, 2021, 06:43:55 pm
Just spotted in the Radio Times: Wednesday, 18th August at 1.00 pm, Radio 3 Lunchtime Concert from the Edinburgh International Festival: the Chineke! Ensemble playing two rarities: first. Vaughan Williams Piano Quintet in C minor and then Coleridge-Taylor Nonet in F minor, Op 2. Any chance these could finish up in the BIMA, d'ya think?


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on August 15, 2021, 12:13:47 pm
Seeing as it's his birthday 'n' all, if you could programme a couple of discs, one orchestral, one choral what would you pick? My selection would be

Solemn Prelude, Toussaint L'Ouverture, Nero (Suite), Scenes from an Everyday Romance and Ethiopia Saluting the Colours [no doubt re-orchestration of several items needed]

Five Choral Ballads, Meg Blane and A Tale of Old Japan - a 2-for-1 [ditto]

 :)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: britishcomposer on August 15, 2021, 01:01:18 pm
Dear members, to celebrate Samuel Coleridge-Taylor's birthday I have uploaded a recording of a BBC broadcast of last October.
It is a performance of the African Suite by the Chineke! Orchestra.
I have no reference books about SCT so I cannot tell you, if SCT orchestrated the work himself. (Googling wasn't successful. Or I wasn't successful...)
IMSLP has the score of the piano version only.
Enjoy!  :)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on August 15, 2021, 01:07:41 pm
Dear members, to celebrate Samuel Coleridge-Taylor's birthday I have uploaded a recording of a BBC broadcast of last October.
It is a performance of the African Suite by the Chineke! Orchestra.
I have no reference books about SCT so I cannot tell you, if SCT orchestrated the work himself. (Googling wasn't successful. Or I wasn't successful...)
IMSLP has the score of the piano version only.
Enjoy!  :)

Bless you! It's heading for BIMA...

 ;D


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on August 15, 2021, 01:22:37 pm
Dear members, to celebrate Samuel Coleridge-Taylor's birthday I have uploaded a recording of a BBC broadcast of last October.
It is a performance of the African Suite by the Chineke! Orchestra.
I have no reference books about SCT so I cannot tell you, if SCT orchestrated the work himself. (Googling wasn't successful. Or I wasn't successful...)
IMSLP has the score of the piano version only.
Enjoy!  :)

Thank you very much! That's a smashing present to me, even if it's SC-T's birthday, rather than mine. The fourth movement, Danse nègre was certainly orchestrated by Coleridge-Taylor but of all the sources I have available (which are several) I can't at first glance see any reference to his orchestrating the other three movements. I will keep digging when personal circumstances allow (which they don't at the moment, sadly).


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on August 15, 2021, 01:23:43 pm
Seeing as it's his birthday 'n' all, if you could programme a couple of discs, one orchestral, one choral what would you pick? My selection would be

Solemn Prelude, Toussaint L'Ouverture, Nero (Suite), Scenes from an Everyday Romance and Ethiopia Saluting the Colours [no doubt re-orchestration of several items needed]

Five Choral Ballads, Meg Blane and A Tale of Old Japan - a 2-for-1 [ditto]

 :)

And so much else...


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on August 15, 2021, 01:29:16 pm
Dear members, to celebrate Samuel Coleridge-Taylor's birthday I have uploaded a recording of a BBC broadcast of last October.
It is a performance of the African Suite by the Chineke! Orchestra.
I have no reference books about SCT so I cannot tell you, if SCT orchestrated the work himself. (Googling wasn't successful. Or I wasn't successful...)
IMSLP has the score of the piano version only.
Enjoy!  :)

Bless you! It's heading for BIMA...

 ;D

Oh, seems to have fallen in...

 :D


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on August 15, 2021, 03:20:50 pm
Dear members, to celebrate Samuel Coleridge-Taylor's birthday I have uploaded a recording of a BBC broadcast of last October.
It is a performance of the African Suite by the Chineke! Orchestra.
I have no reference books about SCT so I cannot tell you, if SCT orchestrated the work himself. (Googling wasn't successful. Or I wasn't successful...)
IMSLP has the score of the piano version only.
Enjoy!  :)

Thank you very much! That's a smashing present to me, even if it's SC-T's birthday, rather than mine. The fourth movement, Danse nègre was certainly orchestrated by Coleridge-Taylor but of all the sources I have available (which are several) I can't at first glance see any reference to his orchestrating the other three movements. I will keep digging when personal circumstances allow (which they don't at the moment, sadly).

I have emailed Chineke! to ask whose orchestrations of the first three movements (if not SC-T's) were used by Maestro Edusi in this performance. I shall revert when I get a response.


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Chriskh on August 16, 2021, 07:59:09 am
I don't know how authoritative W.C. Berwick Sayers' "SC-T His Life and Letters" (Cassell 1915) is, but in the work list it refers to an orchestration of no.4 only


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on August 16, 2021, 10:33:42 am
I don't know how authoritative W.C. Berwick Sayers' "SC-T His Life and Letters" (Cassell 1915) is, but in the work list it refers to an orchestration of no.4 only

With Lionel on the case, I'm sure we'll find out the answer.

(https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.KWeTcNUL5o7QdfNKEM_gvwHaEp?pid=ImgDet&rs=1)

The BBC used to commission orchestrations back in the day...e.g. the three Sullivan Daydreams (Herman Finck) due to be recorded by Dutton. Would that they were so pro-active today: there's plenty of material that now only exists in piano or vocal score. If John Pickard can orchestrate convincingly in the extravagant style of early Havergal Brian (The Vision of Cleopatra), anything is possible.

 :)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on August 16, 2021, 04:58:34 pm
I don't know how authoritative W.C. Berwick Sayers' "SC-T His Life and Letters" (Cassell 1915) is, but in the work list it refers to an orchestration of no.4 only

With Lionel on the case, I'm sure we'll find out the answer.

(https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.KWeTcNUL5o7QdfNKEM_gvwHaEp?pid=ImgDet&rs=1)

 :)

I have my equivalent of The Baker Street Irregulars on the trail.  ;)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on August 16, 2021, 06:04:44 pm
I don't know how authoritative W.C. Berwick Sayers' "SC-T His Life and Letters" (Cassell 1915) is, but in the work list it refers to an orchestration of no.4 only

With Lionel on the case, I'm sure we'll find out the answer.

(https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.KWeTcNUL5o7QdfNKEM_gvwHaEp?pid=ImgDet&rs=1)

 :)

I have my equivalent of The Baker Street Irregulars on the trail.  ;)

Yep, they'll get to the bottom of the case...

(https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.f58afc6485b2b8c0d6a8736ef523c083?rik=3jARU08BzoG%2fGw&riu=http%3a%2f%2f4.bp.blogspot.com%2f-SCPcorab4BA%2fUTnhW2x7DbI%2fAAAAAAABEO0%2fghaQMn488jA%2fs1600%2fFunny_Police_Humorous-005.jpg&ehk=Kmhb57WxKRB1uHegAZZq1WD5qmqGZm%2bskIQ8ZfoyzSQ%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0)

...or perhaps not.

 ::)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on August 16, 2021, 06:27:31 pm
I don't know how authoritative W.C. Berwick Sayers' "SC-T His Life and Letters" (Cassell 1915) is, but in the work list it refers to an orchestration of no.4 only

With Lionel on the case, I'm sure we'll find out the answer.

(https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.KWeTcNUL5o7QdfNKEM_gvwHaEp?pid=ImgDet&rs=1)

 :)

I have my equivalent of The Baker Street Irregulars on the trail.  ;)

Yep, they'll get to the bottom of the case...

(https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.f58afc6485b2b8c0d6a8736ef523c083?rik=3jARU08BzoG%2fGw&riu=http%3a%2f%2f4.bp.blogspot.com%2f-SCPcorab4BA%2fUTnhW2x7DbI%2fAAAAAAABEO0%2fghaQMn488jA%2fs1600%2fFunny_Police_Humorous-005.jpg&ehk=Kmhb57WxKRB1uHegAZZq1WD5qmqGZm%2bskIQ8ZfoyzSQ%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0)

...or perhaps not.

 ::)

This chap is my secret weapon:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1244618756/allo-allo-arthur-bostrom-as-officer-crabtree--2.jpg)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on August 16, 2021, 06:34:39 pm
This chap is my secret weapon:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1244618756/allo-allo-arthur-bostrom-as-officer-crabtree--2.jpg)

Ah! With Officer Crabtree a-pokin' about, no turn will be left un-stoned...

 ;)

The British Air Farce have dropped their bums on the water works...They have scored a direct hot on the pimps.

 :o

Yep, the investigation into the origin of the African Suite orchestration is pretty much done and dusted.

 :D


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on August 17, 2021, 07:57:32 am
I mentioned above that I had emailed Chineke! to seek clarification on who, if not the composer, had orchestrated the first three movements of the African Suite in their recording. I have had a charming reply from Chi-chi Nwanoku herself, telling me that the other movements were orchestrated by Chris Cameron (composer, arranger and producer) especially for the Chineke! Orchestra. Mr Cameron is, like SC-T, an alumnus of the Royal College of Music.

See: Officer Crabtree came up trimps.


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on August 17, 2021, 08:28:07 am
I mentioned above that I had emailed Chineke! to seek clarification on who, if not the composer, had orchestrated the first three movements of the African Suite in their recording. I have had a charming reply from Chi-chi Nwanoku herself, telling me that the other movements were orchestrated by Chris Cameron (composer, arranger and producer) especially for the Chineke! Orchestra. Mr Cameron is, like SC-T, an alumnus of the Royal College of Music.

See: Officer Crabtree came up trimps.

Indeed! I think the orchestrations are pretty idiomatic...if I didn't now know that they weren't by Coleridge-Taylor, I'd assume they were by the composer himself.

 :)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on August 17, 2021, 08:45:02 am
I mentioned above that I had emailed Chineke! to seek clarification on who, if not the composer, had orchestrated the first three movements of the African Suite in their recording. I have had a charming reply from Chi-chi Nwanoku herself, telling me that the other movements were orchestrated by Chris Cameron (composer, arranger and producer) especially for the Chineke! Orchestra. Mr Cameron is, like SC-T, an alumnus of the Royal College of Music.

See: Officer Crabtree came up trimps.

Indeed! I think the orchestrations are pretty idiomatic...if I didn't now know that they weren't by Coleridge-Taylor, I'd assume they were by the composer himself.

 :)

I agree entirely. I wrote in my reply to Chi-chi Nwanoku "as someone with pretty extensive experience of working on SC-T's manuscript scores, I found Mr Cameron's orchestrations to be idiomatic -- which is no mean feat, considering what a great gift for orchestration SC-T had. So 'hats off' to Mr Cameron!"


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on August 17, 2021, 08:55:23 am
I wrote in my reply to Chi-chi Nwanoku "as someone with pretty extensive experience of working on SC-T's manuscript scores, I found Mr Cameron's orchestrations to be idiomatic -- which is no mean feat, considering what a great gift for orchestration SC-T had. So 'hats off' to Mr Cameron!"

He should be commissioned to re-orchestrate the full set of Five Choral Ballads, Op.54. Wonderful pieces!

 :)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on August 17, 2021, 09:23:29 am
I wrote in my reply to Chi-chi Nwanoku "as someone with pretty extensive experience of working on SC-T's manuscript scores, I found Mr Cameron's orchestrations to be idiomatic -- which is no mean feat, considering what a great gift for orchestration SC-T had. So 'hats off' to Mr Cameron!"

He should be commissioned to re-orchestrate the full set of Five Choral Ballads, Op.54. Wonderful pieces!

 :)

Agreed on all counts. I have always assumed that the orchestral score was destroyed when Breitkopf & Härtel's warehouse was bombed during the war.


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: britishcomposer on August 17, 2021, 09:54:25 am
Thank you, Lionel, for providing these interesting informations!


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on August 17, 2021, 10:02:16 am
So 'hats off' to Mr Cameron!"

He should be commissioned to re-orchestrate the full set of Five Choral Ballads, Op.54. Wonderful pieces!

 :)

Agreed on all counts. I have always assumed that the orchestral score was destroyed when Breitkopf & Härtel's warehouse was bombed during the war.

There is a piano-only broadcast of all five in BIMA, plus two MP3s of YouTube videos uploaded by the Longfellow chorus: No.2 She Dwells by Great Kenhawa's Side (piano-only) and No.4 The Quadroon Girl (sympathetically re-orchestrated).

 :)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on August 17, 2021, 12:11:45 pm
So 'hats off' to Mr Cameron!"

He should be commissioned to re-orchestrate the full set of Five Choral Ballads, Op.54. Wonderful pieces!

 :)

Agreed on all counts. I have always assumed that the orchestral score was destroyed when Breitkopf & Härtel's warehouse was bombed during the war.

There is a piano-only broadcast of all five in BIMA, plus two MP3s of YouTube videos uploaded by the Longfellow chorus: No.2 She Dwells by Great Kenhawa's Side (piano-only) and No.4 The Quadroon Girl (sympathetically re-orchestrated).

 :)

I have all those recordings stashed away and I'd encourage anyone to try them. They are wonderful pieces, indeed.


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on August 17, 2021, 12:12:35 pm
Thank you, Lionel, for providing these interesting informations!
You are very welcome. One can only try one's best!


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on August 21, 2021, 10:08:18 am
Coleridge-Taylor's arrangement of Deep River from Twenty-Four Negro Melodies, Op.59, No.10 (1905) has just been played on Radio 3's "Record Review", in the recording by Frances Walker (Orion MAR3105). This lovely set of miniatures has now been recorded several times - Lionel, which would you recommend?

 :)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on August 21, 2021, 10:58:58 am
Coleridge-Taylor's arrangement of Deep River from Twenty-Four Negro Melodies, Op.59, No.10 (1905) has just been played on Radio 3's "Record Review", in the recording by Frances Walker (Orion MAR3105). This lovely set of miniatures has now been recorded several times - Lionel, which would you recommend?

 :)

That's a difficult one to call, John. As far as I am aware, there are two recordings of the complete set: you mention Frances Walker's and there's another by David Shaffer-Gottschalk (Albany TROY930-31). Musically speaking, I have a preference for Frances Walker's recording; she seems to get nearer the soul of the music than David Shaffer-Gottshalk, although the sonics aren't as good. The planned studio sessions had to be abandoned because of the illness of Ms Walker's husband, I think (although my memory could be playing tricks on me there) in consequence of which they were recorded in her home in which the acoustics are somewhat over-reverberant, and on her own piano, which wasn't of the highest quality. Professor of Piano Peter Takács said of her in an obituary, “I remember Frances Walker’s sound—deep, noble, unhurried—which made all music, especially Brahms and Liszt, sound profound.” The same applies to her recording of SC-T to my mind.

However, Shaffer-Gottschalk's recording received some good reviews, including: "David Shaffer-Gottschalk...is a technically well-equipped and sympathetic interpreter of Coleridge-Taylor's music, sensitive to the innovative thinking that was poking out from under the blanket of Edwardian-era technique. A fine release..." (All Music Guide); and "Pianist David Shaffer-Gottschalk delivers loving performances of this unusual, but engaging repertoire. ...a release that piano enthusiasts will certainly want to investigate." (Classical Lost and Found).

My hope is that Isata Kanneh-Mason will make a complete recording in the fullness of time. She has all the interpretative chops, coupled with technique to die for and so I can only imagine how a performance from her would take flight.


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on August 21, 2021, 11:09:02 am
Thanks, Lionel! I always think it's a pity that Coleridge-Taylor never essayed a piano concerto. Admittedly, the soloist involved may have had to give some input in terms of technical possibilities and improvements, as Paderewski did with Cowen's Concertstuck and Sarasate did with Mackenzie's violin concerto (and no doubt innumerable other concertante compositions were subject to "collaboration").

 :)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on August 21, 2021, 11:22:03 am
Thanks, Lionel! I always think it's a pity that Coleridge-Taylor never essayed a piano concerto. Admittedly, the soloist involved may have had to give some input in terms of technical possibilities and improvements, as Paderewski did with Cowen's Concertstuck and Sarasate did with Mackenzie's violin concerto (and no doubt innumerable other concertante compositions were subject to "collaboration").

 :)

Undoubtedly so. As we have discussed before, SC-T was not a first-study pianist and his piano writing can be distictly unpianistic! He had a tendency to write arm-fulls of block chords which, while awkward in solo music where you have to keep a bass-line going. as well as internal figurations, suit a concerto texture much better, as the orchestra could be assigned the subsidiaary stuff. With his great gift for orchestration, I'm sure he'd have done that job brilliantly. However, it wasn't to be, sadly.


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on August 21, 2021, 11:30:56 am

My hope is that Isata Kanneh-Mason will make a complete recording in the fullness of time. She has all the interpretative chops, coupled with technique to die for and so I can only imagine how a performance from her would take flight.

I should have mentioned that Ms Kanneh-Mason included three of the melodies (no 8 The Bamboula; no 10 Deep River; no 22 Sometimes I Feel Like a Motherless Child) on her recent Decca release 'Summertime' (cat. no. 4851663) so one can sample her approach. In SC-T's opinion, Deep River is the most beautiful melody of the set, and who am I to disagree? It's certainly very touching in this performance.


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on August 21, 2021, 11:32:14 am
Thanks, Lionel! I always think it's a pity that Coleridge-Taylor never essayed a piano concerto. Admittedly, the soloist involved may have had to give some input in terms of technical possibilities and improvements, as Paderewski did with Cowen's Concertstuck and Sarasate did with Mackenzie's violin concerto (and no doubt innumerable other concertante compositions were subject to "collaboration").

 :)

Undoubtedly so. As we have discussed before, SC-T was not a first-study pianist and his piano writing can be distictly unpianistic! He had a tendency to write arm-fulls of block chords which, while awkward in solo music where you have to keep a bass-line going. as well as internal figurations, suit a concerto texture much better, as the orchestra could be assigned the subsidiaary stuff. With his great gift for orchestration, I'm sure he'd have done that job brilliantly. However, it wasn't to be, sadly.

Incidentally, I've always thought that the 1896 piano concerto by Coleridge-Taylor's great friend William Hurlstone (1876-1906) is quite lovely. Thankfully, Lyrita recorded it along with most of his other major orchestral scores (he was a master of the variation form). Equally precocious and even more tragically short-lived - another of the great might-have-beens (along with today's birthday girl).

 :(


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on August 21, 2021, 11:40:24 am
Thanks, Lionel! I always think it's a pity that Coleridge-Taylor never essayed a piano concerto. Admittedly, the soloist involved may have had to give some input in terms of technical possibilities and improvements, as Paderewski did with Cowen's Concertstuck and Sarasate did with Mackenzie's violin concerto (and no doubt innumerable other concertante compositions were subject to "collaboration").

 :)

Undoubtedly so. As we have discussed before, SC-T was not a first-study pianist and his piano writing can be distictly unpianistic! He had a tendency to write arm-fulls of block chords which, while awkward in solo music where you have to keep a bass-line going. as well as internal figurations, suit a concerto texture much better, as the orchestra could be assigned the subsidiaary stuff. With his great gift for orchestration, I'm sure he'd have done that job brilliantly. However, it wasn't to be, sadly.

Incidentally, I've always thought that the 1896 piano concerto by Coleridge-Taylor's great friend William Hurlstone (1876-1906) is quite lovely. Thankfully, Lyrita recorded it along with most of his other major orchestral scores (he was a master of the variation form). Equally precocious and even more tragically short-lived - another of the great might-have-beens (along with today's birthday girl).

 :(

I agree, and I think his chamber music is also especially fine. The only thing I think he's missing, in comparison with SC-T, is the gift for really memorable melody. Of course, Stanford regarded the pair of them as probably the most naturally gifted students he ever taught, which is saying something!


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on August 21, 2021, 11:43:05 am
Thanks, Lionel! I always think it's a pity that Coleridge-Taylor never essayed a piano concerto. Admittedly, the soloist involved may have had to give some input in terms of technical possibilities and improvements, as Paderewski did with Cowen's Concertstuck and Sarasate did with Mackenzie's violin concerto (and no doubt innumerable other concertante compositions were subject to "collaboration").

 :)

Undoubtedly so. As we have discussed before, SC-T was not a first-study pianist and his piano writing can be distictly unpianistic! He had a tendency to write arm-fulls of block chords which, while awkward in solo music where you have to keep a bass-line going. as well as internal figurations, suit a concerto texture much better, as the orchestra could be assigned the subsidiaary stuff. With his great gift for orchestration, I'm sure he'd have done that job brilliantly. However, it wasn't to be, sadly.

Incidentally, I've always thought that the 1896 piano concerto by Coleridge-Taylor's great friend William Hurlstone (1876-1906) is quite lovely. Thankfully, Lyrita recorded it along with most of his other major orchestral scores (he was a master of the variation form). Equally precocious and even more tragically short-lived - another of the great might-have-beens (along with today's birthday girl).

 :(

I agree, and I think his chamber music is also especially fine. The only thing I think he's missing, in comparison with SC-T, is the gift for really memorable melody. Of course, Stanford regarded the pair of them as probably the most naturally gifted students he ever taught, which is saying something!

It certainly is, considering that he also taught RVW and Holst - who knows what the subsequent landscape of British music may have looked like? Likewise, Sullivan's teachers in Leipzig thought that he was more naturally gifted than Brahms - who am I to argue?

 ;)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on August 21, 2021, 11:51:54 am
Thanks, Lionel! I always think it's a pity that Coleridge-Taylor never essayed a piano concerto. Admittedly, the soloist involved may have had to give some input in terms of technical possibilities and improvements, as Paderewski did with Cowen's Concertstuck and Sarasate did with Mackenzie's violin concerto (and no doubt innumerable other concertante compositions were subject to "collaboration").

 :)

Undoubtedly so. As we have discussed before, SC-T was not a first-study pianist and his piano writing can be distictly unpianistic! He had a tendency to write arm-fulls of block chords which, while awkward in solo music where you have to keep a bass-line going. as well as internal figurations, suit a concerto texture much better, as the orchestra could be assigned the subsidiaary stuff. With his great gift for orchestration, I'm sure he'd have done that job brilliantly. However, it wasn't to be, sadly.

Incidentally, I've always thought that the 1896 piano concerto by Coleridge-Taylor's great friend William Hurlstone (1876-1906) is quite lovely. Thankfully, Lyrita recorded it along with most of his other major orchestral scores (he was a master of the variation form). Equally precocious and even more tragically short-lived - another of the great might-have-beens (along with today's birthday girl).

 :(

I agree, and I think his chamber music is also especially fine. The only thing I think he's missing, in comparison with SC-T, is the gift for really memorable melody. Of course, Stanford regarded the pair of them as probably the most naturally gifted students he ever taught, which is saying something!

It certainly is, considering that he also taught RVW and Holst - who knows what the subsequent landscape of British music may have looked like? Likewise, Sullivan's teachers in Leipzig thought that he was more naturally gifted than Brahms - who am I to argue?

 ;)
Yes, I remember reading that remark. Wasn't it Julius Rietz who allegedly made it? Again my memory could be playing tricks on me there, too.


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on August 21, 2021, 11:55:46 am
Yes, I remember reading that quote. Wasn't it Julius Rietz who allegedly made it? Again my memory could be playing tricks on me there, too.

Yes, I think it was.

 :)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on August 21, 2021, 12:05:44 pm
Yes, I remember reading that quote. Wasn't it Julius Rietz who allegedly made it? Again my memory could be playing tricks on me there, too.

Yes, I think it was.

 :)

At the risk of shooting off on a tangent, it's worth saying that Rietz wrote some good music too. Many years ago I bought an LP of Bruch's Second Symphony played by the Louisville Orchestra under Jorg Mester, the filler to which was Rietz's Concert Overture in A Major op 7, as charming a piece as you could wish to encounter. At around the same time, I bought an LP of Heinz Holliger playing a collection of concertante works for oboe which included a lovely little Konzertstuck in F Minor op 33 for oboe and orchestra by Rietz. Mind you, I haven't listened to either of them in upwards of thirty years! ::)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on August 21, 2021, 12:15:46 pm
Yes, I remember reading that quote. Wasn't it Julius Rietz who allegedly made it? Again my memory could be playing tricks on me there, too.

Yes, I think it was.

 :)

At the risk of shooting off on a tangent, it's worth saying that Rietz wrote some good music too. Many years ago I bought an LP of Bruch's Second Symphony played by the Louisville Orchestra under Jorg Mester, the filler to which was Rietz's Concert Overture in A Major op 7, as charming a piece as you could wish to encounter. At around the same time, I bought an LP of Heinz Holliger playing a collection of concertante works for oboe which included a lovely little Konzertstuck in F Minor op 33 for oboe and orchestra by Rietz. Mind you, I haven't listened to either of them in upwards of thirty years! ::)

Hallelujah!


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on August 21, 2021, 02:20:31 pm
I doubt whether either Coleridge-Taylor or Hurlstone would have changed stylistically to the extent that RVW (Tallis Fantasia to Symphony No.6) and Holst (Somerset Rhapsody to Egdon Heath) did throughout their careers. Perhaps they would have adopted Frederic Cowen's/ Frederic Cliffe's/ Edward German's stance and simply withdrawn from the "new musical landscape"...

(https://i.pinimg.com/474x/bf/b7/b9/bfb7b9fcbd000f9bb1f88b10c0a23790.jpg)



Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on August 21, 2021, 02:42:58 pm
I doubt whether either Coleridge-Taylor or Hurlstone would have changed stylistically to the extent that RVW (Tallis Fantasia to Symphony No.6) and Holst (Somerset Rhapsody to Egdon Heath) did throughout their careers. Perhaps they would have adopted Frederic Cowen's/ Edward German's stance and simply withdrawn from the "new musical landscape"...

(https://i.pinimg.com/474x/bf/b7/b9/bfb7b9fcbd000f9bb1f88b10c0a23790.jpg)


A very interesting thought. I'm sure you are correct in reckoning that SC-T would not have changed stylistically as RVW and Holst did, and you're probably right about Hurlstone too but I'm not as familiar with his psyche as I am with Coleridge's and so I'm not really qualified to comment. I doubt that Coleridge would have withdrawn, though. He composed because he couldn't help it, bless 'im. Music just poured out of him like a tap and I don't think he could have just turned it off. He may have taken a leaf out of Eric Coates's book and stuck to producing lighter music in the vein of the Petite Suite de Concert, and more songs, with the occasional foray into African-influenced territory. I can't see him doing a Fred Cliffe and just shuttng up shop. But who knows?

(It's strange but I feel I've spent so much time with SC-T over the last twenty or so years that I have become a member of his inner circle and feel entitled to call him 'Coleridge' as his famly (and even his children, apparently) did. Of course, my first encounter with him was back in the 1970s when I was asked to conduct Hiawatha's Wedding Feast (with a big choir, full orchestra and good tenor soloist) after which I was utterly hooked!)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on August 21, 2021, 04:26:35 pm
I doubt whether either Coleridge-Taylor or Hurlstone would have changed stylistically to the extent that RVW (Tallis Fantasia to Symphony No.6) and Holst (Somerset Rhapsody to Egdon Heath) did throughout their careers. Perhaps they would have adopted Frederic Cowen's/ Edward German's stance and simply withdrawn from the "new musical landscape"...

(https://i.pinimg.com/474x/bf/b7/b9/bfb7b9fcbd000f9bb1f88b10c0a23790.jpg)


A very interesting thought. I'm sure you are correct in reckoning that SC-T would not have changed stylistically as RVW and Holst did, and you're probably right about Hurlstone too but I'm not as familiiar with his psyche as I am with Coleridge's and so I'm not really qualified to comment. I doubt that Coleridge would have withdrawn, though. He composed because he couldn't help it, bless 'im. Music just poured out of him like a tap and I don't think he could have just turned it off. He may have taken a leaf out of Eric Coates's book and stuck to producing lighter music in the vein of the Petite Suite de Concert, and more songs, with the occasional foray into African-influenced territory. I can't see him doing a Fred Cliffe and just shuttng up shop. But who knows?

Coleridge-Taylor's idiom was rooted in Dvorak, and remained so to the end of his life. Absolutely beautiful - earthy tunes, clear orchestration and solid choral writing. No idiom could have been built on better foundations. Whether or not the audiences would have been there post-WWI is a moot point. Bantock and Elgar suffered neglect, Holbrooke and Scott were junked, Cowen and Mackenzie were completely forgotten. But hey, it's the "Roaring 20s", so...

(https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.025a263fd8cc04426fff1b7f32904a56?rik=BAeLMZ05JOdQ0g&pid=ImgRaw&r=0)

..."oh, me poor knees, knick-knock 24/7". Stravinsky endorses

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/818hi9mOv3L._AC_UL320_.jpg)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on August 21, 2021, 05:42:17 pm
I doubt whether either Coleridge-Taylor or Hurlstone would have changed stylistically to the extent that RVW (Tallis Fantasia to Symphony No.6) and Holst (Somerset Rhapsody to Egdon Heath) did throughout their careers. Perhaps they would have adopted Frederic Cowen's/ Edward German's stance and simply withdrawn from the "new musical landscape"...

(https://i.pinimg.com/474x/bf/b7/b9/bfb7b9fcbd000f9bb1f88b10c0a23790.jpg)


A very interesting thought. I'm sure you are correct in reckoning that SC-T would not have changed stylistically as RVW and Holst did, and you're probably right about Hurlstone too but I'm not as familiiar with his psyche as I am with Coleridge's and so I'm not really qualified to comment. I doubt that Coleridge would have withdrawn, though. He composed because he couldn't help it, bless 'im. Music just poured out of him like a tap and I don't think he could have just turned it off. He may have taken a leaf out of Eric Coates's book and stuck to producing lighter music in the vein of the Petite Suite de Concert, and more songs, with the occasional foray into African-influenced territory. I can't see him doing a Fred Cliffe and just shuttng up shop. But who knows?

Coleridge-Taylor's idiom was rooted in Dvorak, and remained so to the end of his life. Absolutely beautiful - earthy tunes, clear orchestration and solid choral writing. No idiom could have been built on better foundations. Whether or not the audiences would have been there post-WWI is a moot point. Bantock and Elgar suffered neglect, Holbrooke and Scott were junked, Cowen and Mackenzie were completely forgotten. But hey, it's the "Roaring 20s", so...

(https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.025a263fd8cc04426fff1b7f32904a56?rik=BAeLMZ05JOdQ0g&pid=ImgRaw&r=0)

..."oh, me poor knees, knick-knock 24/7". Stravinsky endorses

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/818hi9mOv3L._AC_UL320_.jpg)

I wonder if Coleridge was a special case, in that his appeal was always wider and more 'populist' than that of Bantock, Cowen et al, and even of Elgar (except in his Pomp and Circumstance or Salut d'amour modes). After all, the audiences were certainly there for Sargent's Hiawatha jamborees at the Albert Hall until 1939 (and may have continued beyond that if not for that ghastly little twerp with the toothbrush moustache). You are quite right in what you say about Coleridge-Taylor's idiom being "rooted in Dvořák", and that "it couldn't have been built on better foundations" and, of course, Dvořák never went out of fashion. It's an interesting discussion but very sadly we'll never know, given Coleridge's untimely demise.

I lilke the idea of Igor rubbing Wild Thera Bruise Away Balm into his knees but in my opinion he'd have done better to rub it into his ears, certainly after 1913.  ;)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on September 24, 2021, 06:49:43 pm
Lionel may well disagree, but to me the real greatness of Coleridge-Taylor lies in

Hiawatha's Wedding Feast, Op.30 No.1 (1898)
Ballade in A minor, Op.33 (1898)
The Death of Minnehaha, Op.30. No.2 (1899)
Five Choral Ballads, Op.54 (1904-05)
Symphonic Variations on an African Air, op.63 (1906)
The Bamboula, Op.75 (1910)
A Tale of Old Japan, Op.76 (1911)
Petite Suite de Concert, Op.77 (1911)
Violin Concerto, Op.80 (1912)


Many other scores are absolutely lovely (recent additions to the BIMA of the African Suite and Four Novelleten, etc.), but I still think that the above are essential listening. Having lived with vocal and piano scores for decades I wish that more was recorded, of course, but works like Meg Blane (1902) and Kubla Khan (1905) will probably never be on the radar.

 ::)


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on September 24, 2021, 08:03:44 pm
Lionel may well disagree, but to me the real greatness of Coleridge-Taylor lies in

Hiawatha's Wedding Feast, Op.30 No.1 (1898)
Ballade in A minor, Op.33 (1898)
The Death of Minnehaha, Op.30. No.2 (1899)
Five Choral Ballads, Op.54 (1904-05)
Symphonic Variations on an African Air, op.63 (1906)
The Bamboula, Op.75 (1910)
A Tale of Old Japan, Op.76 (1911)
Petite Suite de Concert, Op.77 (1911)
Violin Concerto, Op.80 (1912)


Many other scores are absolutely lovely (recent additions to the BIMA of the African Suite and Four Novelleten, etc.), but I still think that the above are essential listening. Having lived with vocal and piano scores for decades I wish that more was recorded, of course, but works like Meg Blane (1902) and Kubla Khan (1905) will probably never be on the radar.

 ::)

No, I wouldn't disagree (I wouldn't dare ;D) but I would certainly add the Clarinet Quintet!


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Albion on September 24, 2021, 08:18:19 pm
Lionel may well disagree, but to me the real greatness of Coleridge-Taylor lies in

Hiawatha's Wedding Feast, Op.30 No.1 (1898)
Ballade in A minor, Op.33 (1898)
The Death of Minnehaha, Op.30. No.2 (1899)
Five Choral Ballads, Op.54 (1904-05)
Symphonic Variations on an African Air, op.63 (1906)
The Bamboula, Op.75 (1910)
A Tale of Old Japan, Op.76 (1911)
Petite Suite de Concert, Op.77 (1911)
Violin Concerto, Op.80 (1912)


Many other scores are absolutely lovely (recent additions to the BIMA of the African Suite and Four Novelleten, etc.), but I still think that the above are essential listening. Having lived with vocal and piano scores for decades I wish that more was recorded, of course, but works like Meg Blane (1902) and Kubla Khan (1905) will probably never be on the radar.

 ::)

No, I wouldn't disagree (I wouldn't dare ;D) but I would certainly add the Clarinet Quintet!

Yerra bloody tinker, y'are!

 :D


Title: Re: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912)
Post by: Lionel Harrison on September 24, 2021, 08:59:53 pm
Lionel may well disagree, but to me the real greatness of Coleridge-Taylor lies in

Hiawatha's Wedding Feast, Op.30 No.1 (1898)
Ballade in A minor, Op.33 (1898)
The Death of Minnehaha, Op.30. No.2 (1899)
Five Choral Ballads, Op.54 (1904-05)
Symphonic Variations on an African Air, op.63 (1906)
The Bamboula, Op.75 (1910)
A Tale of Old Japan, Op.76 (1911)
Petite Suite de Concert, Op.77 (1911)
Violin Concerto, Op.80 (1912)


Many other scores are absolutely lovely (recent additions to the BIMA of the African Suite and Four Novelleten, etc.), but I still think that the above are essential listening. Having lived with vocal and piano scores for decades I wish that more was recorded, of course, but works like Meg Blane (1902) and Kubla Khan (1905) will probably never be on the radar.

 ::)

No, I wouldn't disagree (I wouldn't dare ;D) but I would certainly add the Clarinet Quintet!

Yerra bloody tinker, y'are!

 :D

Unsurprisingly, I've been called worse! ;) ;D