The Art-Music, Literature and Linguistics Forum
March 29, 2024, 01:34:47 am
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Here you may discover hundreds of little-known composers, hear thousands of long-forgotten compositions, contribute your own rare recordings, and discuss the Arts, Literature and Linguistics in an erudite and decorous atmosphere full of freedom and delight.
 
  Home Help Search Gallery Staff List Login Register  

Holst Perfect Fool Opera

Pages: [1] 2   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Holst Perfect Fool Opera  (Read 826 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
jonah
Level 2
**

Times thanked: 1
Offline Offline

Posts: 73


View Profile
« on: July 30, 2021, 10:04:15 pm »

Lyrita will be issuing Sir Charles Groves’ BBCNSO recording of Holst’s Perfect Fool opera on 3rd September
Report Spam   Logged

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter

guest822
Guest
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2021, 10:24:03 pm »

Lyrita will be issuing Sir Charles Groves’ BBCNSO recording of Holst’s Perfect Fool opera on 3rd September

That's great news, jonah, thanks. It's a disgrace that, as far as I'm aware, this fine and characteristic opera by one of the true greats of 20th century English music has never received a commercial recording. I guess this is a transfer of a broadcast rather than a glossy SACD but still, it's to be welcomed with three cheers. It will be interesting to compare it with the version conducted by Tod Handley which is in the BIMA. The Perfect Fool is not the only the only significant piece by Holst (indeed, not the only significant opera by Holst) that still awaits a good, modern recording. We British really ought to be ashamed of ourselves.
Report Spam   Logged
cilgwyn
Level 7
*******

Times thanked: 49
Offline Offline

Posts: 1914



View Profile
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2021, 02:23:04 am »

Yeeeeeeeeehoooooooooo! :) Ahem! ::) ;D This is exciting! Only yesterday,I was playing the ballet music from the opera,and I was thinking about the opera from which it came and why,oh why (not Delilah! ;D) it had still not received a cd release in the form of a new recording or release of one of the BBC recordings! So,odd to read this news now,in the circumstances! I've also been thinking of putting the opera on. (I've got the Handley recording on a cd-r) Hearing the ballet in it's original context is fascinating. The libretto may not be one of the best,but Holst's music is imaginative and colorful,and I always enjoy the opera when I put it on. I remember Rob Barnett,at Musicweb,saying that he thought emi missed the boat in not recording it. I think it is a more entertaining listen than At the Boar's Head or The Wandering Scholar & it is ridiculous that it has not been available on cd,by now! I pestered Chandos about recording it,on their,now defunct (as far as I'm aware) forum. Just once,they replied and said they would suggest a recording to Andrew Davis. Sadly,nothing came of it! This is very good news,jonah! I'm a big fan of Holst,by the way!
Report Spam   Logged
Albion
Level 7
*******

Times thanked: 2750
Offline Offline

Posts: 1683


Frederic Cowen (1852-1935)


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2021, 08:12:12 am »

Lyrita will be issuing Sir Charles Groves’ BBCNSO recording of Holst’s Perfect Fool opera on 3rd September

Excellent. This will complement Vernon Handley's 1995 broadcast which is in BIMA.

 :)
Report Spam   Logged

"A piece is worth your attention, and is itself for you praiseworthy, if it makes you feel you have not wasted your time over it." (Sydney Grew, 1922)
guest822
Guest
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2021, 09:10:56 am »

I think it is a more entertaining listen than At the Boar's Head or The Wandering Scholar

Agreed!
Report Spam   Logged
Albion
Level 7
*******

Times thanked: 2750
Offline Offline

Posts: 1683


Frederic Cowen (1852-1935)


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2021, 12:24:26 pm »

I assume the three broadcasts listed (1967, 1968 and 1974) are of the same performance -

https://genome.ch.bbc.co.uk/search/0/20?q=holst+perfect+fool+groves#top

 :)

Ah, the perils of scanning in copies of the Radio Times and not checking afterwards:

Fourth of six programmes ot of Hoist's less frequently beard music



 :D
Report Spam   Logged

"A piece is worth your attention, and is itself for you praiseworthy, if it makes you feel you have not wasted your time over it." (Sydney Grew, 1922)
guest822
Guest
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2021, 12:57:02 pm »

I assume the three broadcasts listed (1967, 1968 and 1974) are of the same performance -

https://genome.ch.bbc.co.uk/search/0/20?q=holst+perfect+fool+groves#top

 :)

Ah, the perils of scanning in copies of the Radio Times and not checking afterwards:

Fourth of six programmes ot of Hoist's less frequently beard music



 :D

 ;D

I found the comments by Imogen Holst under the 1967 broadcast interesting. They offer a small but endearing insight into Gustav Holst the man. Clearly, she also approved of Groves's approach to her pa's opera!
Report Spam   Logged
paul corfield godfrey
Level 2
**

Times thanked: 8
Offline Offline

Posts: 14


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2021, 01:42:41 pm »

I hate to pour cold water on this reissue, and it will be interesting to hear the Groves performance again, but I had a home-made cassette copy of the performance for many years and it doesn't bear comparison with the later Handley version already in the archive.

In the first place the Groves version is crudely, and irrationally, cut. Lots of small snips are made here and there for no very obvious reason. Some of them may perhaps be laid at Imogen Holst's door, since in her book on her father's music she made some highly disparaging comments about some of the dialogue; but some of the phrases to which she particularly objected are left intact, while others are removed. But the Handley performance, complete in every respect, makes it clear that any abridgement is most unwelcome. The beautiful (albeit brief) pastoral episode where the shepherd describes his grazing sheep is omitted in its entirety.

Secondly, we are afflicted with an intrusive narrator who describes the action as it proceeds. This was a standard BBC technique at the time, but this is a particularly bad example since the narrator frequently talks over the music - and since he is close to the microphone, masks it. Also some of the sung words are altered to make the action clearer for home listeners, not to the advantage of the music. And there are added sound effects, including the Fool at one point yawning very loudly right into the microphone with sufficient volume to drown out the Troubadour.

Thirdly, the singing on the later Handley recording is generally considerably superior and the Princess - for example - gives us the optional high D towards the end which Groves's soprano ducks. And the recorded quality on the Handley is far superior to the rather boomy acoustic which provides plenty of body for the Groves but obscures much of the inner detail.

It is a total mystery to me why the Handley version - excellent in most respects - has never been licensed for issue on CD, or even given away as a cover-mount on BBC Music Magazine. It was given high priority billing at Christmas when it was first broadcast, and has been comprehensively forgotten since.
Report Spam   Logged
guest822
Guest
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2021, 02:47:59 pm »

I hate to pour cold water on this reissue, and it will be interesting to hear the Groves performance again, but I had a home-made cassette copy of the performance for many years and it doesn't bear comparison with the later Handley version already in the archive.

In the first place the Groves version is crudely, and irrationally, cut. Lots of small snips are made here and there for no very obvious reason. Some of them may perhaps be laid at Imogen Holst's door, since in her book on her father's music she made some highly disparaging comments about some of the dialogue; but some of the phrases to which she particularly objected are left intact, while others are removed. But the Handley performance, complete in every respect, makes it clear that any abridgement is most unwelcome. The beautiful (albeit brief) pastoral episode where the shepherd describes his grazing sheep is omitted in its entirety.

Secondly, we are afflicted with an intrusive narrator who describes the action as it proceeds. This was a standard BBC technique at the time, but this is a particularly bad example since the narrator frequently talks over the music - and since he is close to the microphone, masks it. Also some of the sung words are altered to make the action clearer for home listeners, not to the advantage of the music. And there are added sound effects, including the Fool at one point yawning very loudly right into the microphone with sufficient volume to drown out the Troubadour.

Thirdly, the singing on the later Handley recording is generally considerably superior and the Princess - for example - gives us the optional high D towards the end which Groves's soprano ducks. And the recorded quality on the Handley is far superior to the rather boomy acoustic which provides plenty of body for the Groves but obscures much of the inner detail.

It is a total mystery to me why the Handley version - excellent in most respects - has never been licensed for issue on CD, or even given away as a cover-mount on BBC Music Magazine. It was given high priority billing at Christmas when it was first broadcast, and has been comprehensively forgotten since.

Nothing wrong with a copious downpouring of cold water, Paul; it can be most refreshing! Thank you for a fascinating insight from one who is clearly fully informed.  :) It definitely looks as though I shall be remaining faithful to Tod Handley's version then...
Report Spam   Logged
Albion
Level 7
*******

Times thanked: 2750
Offline Offline

Posts: 1683


Frederic Cowen (1852-1935)


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2021, 04:32:35 pm »

It is a total mystery to me why the Handley version - excellent in most respects - has never been licensed for issue on CD, or even given away as a cover-mount on BBC Music Magazine. It was given high priority billing at Christmas when it was first broadcast, and has been comprehensively forgotten since.

It hasn't been forgotten here! Yes, I would prefer the Handley version to be commercially released as well, together with Barry Wordsworth's wonderful interpretation of Hecuba's Lament (also broadcast in 1995) - just the right length for a CD! I presume that the Lyrita release has no coupling item.

 ;)
Report Spam   Logged

"A piece is worth your attention, and is itself for you praiseworthy, if it makes you feel you have not wasted your time over it." (Sydney Grew, 1922)
cilgwyn
Level 7
*******

Times thanked: 49
Offline Offline

Posts: 1914



View Profile
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2021, 06:45:55 pm »

I hate to pour cold water on this reissue, and it will be interesting to hear the Groves performance again, but I had a home-made cassette copy of the performance for many years and it doesn't bear comparison with the later Handley version already in the archive.

In the first place the Groves version is crudely, and irrationally, cut. Lots of small snips are made here and there for no very obvious reason. Some of them may perhaps be laid at Imogen Holst's door, since in her book on her father's music she made some highly disparaging comments about some of the dialogue; but some of the phrases to which she particularly objected are left intact, while others are removed. But the Handley performance, complete in every respect, makes it clear that any abridgement is most unwelcome. The beautiful (albeit brief) pastoral episode where the shepherd describes his grazing sheep is omitted in its entirety.

Secondly, we are afflicted with an intrusive narrator who describes the action as it proceeds. This was a standard BBC technique at the time, but this is a particularly bad example since the narrator frequently talks over the music - and since he is close to the microphone, masks it. Also some of the sung words are altered to make the action clearer for home listeners, not to the advantage of the music. And there are added sound effects, including the Fool at one point yawning very loudly right into the microphone with sufficient volume to drown out the Troubadour.

Thirdly, the singing on the later Handley recording is generally considerably superior and the Princess - for example - gives us the optional high D towards the end which Groves's soprano ducks. And the recorded quality on the Handley is far superior to the rather boomy acoustic which provides plenty of body for the Groves but obscures much of the inner detail.

It is a total mystery to me why the Handley version - excellent in most respects - has never been licensed for issue on CD, or even given away as a cover-mount on BBC Music Magazine. It was given high priority billing at Christmas when it was first broadcast, and has been comprehensively forgotten since.

Nothing wrong with a copious downpouring of cold water, Paul; it can be most refreshing! Thank you for a fascinating insight from one who is clearly fully informed.  :) It definitely looks as though I shall be remaining faithful to Tod Handley's version then...
My heart did sink,somewhat,when I looked the forthcoming cd up,and read Imogen Holst's comments made at the time of the Groves broadcast! This gorgeous,colourful score really does need to heard in stereo;but,I thought,oh well,I quite like old mono recordings and maybe it will be a good performance? It is true,that an old mono opera (or operetta) recording can,sometimes,be better than a newer,stereo one? (I'm not referring to sound quality,of course!) But from what you have told us here,I think I will be sticking to Handley,too! I noticed that the Groves performance is on Youtube. It did say that the recording was incomplete! Actually,I've just looked at it,and that's where I read what Imogen Holst wrote! Someone's mum was one of the 'girls',though! Nice! :) It's just a pity that a rare chance to hear the work was marred in such a way! Dear oh dear! ::) I was so hoping that Lyrita would release this opera! But,unlike those mono G & S broadcasts from 1966,which are very,very good,this one sounds like one to.............I was going to say avoid;but I thnk I'll sample it online?!! :(
Report Spam   Logged
Albion
Level 7
*******

Times thanked: 2750
Offline Offline

Posts: 1683


Frederic Cowen (1852-1935)


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2021, 07:45:10 pm »

My heart did sink,somewhat,when I looked the forthcoming cd up,and read Imogen Holst's comments made at the time of the Groves broadcast! This gorgeous,colourful score really does need to heard in stereo;but,I thought,oh well,I quite like old mono recordings and maybe it will be a good performance? It is true,that an old mono opera (or operetta) recording can,sometimes,be better than a newer,stereo one? (I'm not referring to sound quality,of course!) But from what you have told us here,I think I will be sticking to Handley,too! I noticed that the Groves performance is on Youtube. It did say that the recording was incomplete! Actually,I've just looked at it,and that's where I read what Imogen Holst wrote! Someone's mum was one of the 'girls',though! Nice! :) It's just a pity that a rare chance to hear the work was marred in such a way! Dear oh dear! ::) I was so hoping that Lyrita would release this opera! But,unlike those mono G & S broadcasts from 1966,which are very,very good,this one sounds like one to.............I was going to say avoid;but I thnk I'll sample it online?!! :(

My thoughts exactly. Handley's version is complete, in stereo and beautifully performed - a far better advocacy for the opera one would have thought. And yes, the BBC archive is there to be mined - the treasures that are currently preserved in aspic...



 ::)
Report Spam   Logged

"A piece is worth your attention, and is itself for you praiseworthy, if it makes you feel you have not wasted your time over it." (Sydney Grew, 1922)
cilgwyn
Level 7
*******

Times thanked: 49
Offline Offline

Posts: 1914



View Profile
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2021, 10:21:42 pm »

A missed opportunity,if ever there was! I feel,somewhat,gutted!! Recording labels make some strange decisions,sometimes,don't they? Groves cut & someone yapping over the music vs an uncut Handley in stereo?! Which would you go for?!!  As they say,'Itch nort rocket sciunce!' Oh well,I'll feel better after I  'dig out' my nice cd-r! :) :) :)
Report Spam   Logged
guest822
Guest
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2021, 10:29:12 pm »

A missed opportunity,if ever there was! I feel,somewhat,gutted!! Recording labels make some strange decisions,sometimes,don't they? Groves cut & someone yapping over the music vs an uncut Handley in stereo?! Which would you go for?!!  As they say,'Itch nort rocket sciunce!' Oh well,I'll feel better after I  'dig out' my nice cd-r! :) :) :)

Yers, it seems as if we got all excited and then it turned out to be a damp squib. As you say, back to Handley, on an external hard drive, in my case!  ;D
Report Spam   Logged
cilgwyn
Level 7
*******

Times thanked: 49
Offline Offline

Posts: 1914



View Profile
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2021, 01:10:36 pm »

Well,I got my wish! But like in some of those old fairy stories,it didn't quite turn out the way I wanted it to!! ::) :( ;D Unless some other small label coughs up the Handley broacast,the best hope is for a new recording! Or perhaps a small,provincial operatic company will decide to put it on & a recording will follow (as per,Stanford's Travelling Comanion). But brilliant orchestral writing needs a professional orchestra! And wobbly soloists don't help! When Boughton's Immortal Hour and VW's The Poisoned Kiss were released,they benefited from top notch performances. The sort of recording where you have to make allowances for wobbly soloists can do more damage than good!

Report Spam   Logged

Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal
Bookmark this site! | Upgrade This Forum
SMF For Free - Create your own Forum


Powered by SMF | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines
Privacy Policy