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Franco Alfano - his two smphonies


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Author Topic: Franco Alfano - his two smphonies  (Read 581 times)
guest54
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« on: September 26, 2018, 01:49:13 am »

Symphony 1


Symphony 2


You-Tube is a reputable long-established trans-Atlantic organisation, and we may have confidence in the integrity of its content and procedures.

Having said that, I never copy content from You Tube and post it here. I do, in good faith, post links to content at You-Tube that, because of its rarity, may interest our members. For example, I might post links to Szymanowski's first two symphonies, because they have not been broadcast for over thirty years, but I would not post a link to his third because it is not rare enough.

I claim responsibility only for my links, and not for any material elsewhere to which they may  point. Both these items are hosted not here but at You Tube,  and are of course utterly beyond our control.

If, despite that, there is any one who wants my mere links to be removed, he should contact me, stating a) the reason and b) the manner in which he is authorised. If these two conditions are in order I will naturally comply with a request. The only objection I can think of to a link might be that it points to an insufficiently rarely heard composition.

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Dundonnell
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« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2018, 01:03:51 am »

I am extremely unhappy to find these two Alfano symphonies here!

The You Tube performances are taken directly from the CPO cd which is still commercially available.

As I said in relation to the Hilding Rosenberg Symphony No.3 I do NOT think that we should be "hosting" these here.

My inclination as an Administrator is to take these down. I am extremely sorry that this will no doubt upset the former administrator who posted them.

I shall consult my fellow Administrator, Maris.

In the meantime any comments by members would be very much appreciated!!
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paul corfield godfrey
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« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2018, 03:55:06 pm »

YouTube is invaluable as a source for material that is otherwise unobtainable or impossible to obtain. I have had no objection to the posting on that forum of excerpts from my own music - it encourages interest and enables listeners to gain acquaintance with music with which they would not otherwise be able to encounter without difficulty. It is also frequently very useful as a means of viewing video and television recordings which have long been withdrawn from commercial circulation (although the quality can be highly variable).

On the other hand, the release of commercially available material, especially if it is still listed for sale in current catalogues (I exclude exorbitantly-priced second-hand copies on Amazon), is decidedly dangerous. I know from my own experience the small levels of sales for rare material experienced by record companies who step off the well-beaten path, and I have little doubt that listeners who can download their recordings free of charge from YouTube are effectively diminishing their sales still further. It is clearly for similar reasons that some popular entertainers have taken steps to restrict or ban their recordings from streaming services, since the loss in sales and royalties is significant.

It is difficult enough to get record companies interested in out-of-the-way material as it is (although of course the situation has improved immeasurably in recent decades) without restricting their commercial returns still further. As a composer myself, I hardly dare mention the issue of royalties...
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the Administration
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« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2018, 10:11:23 pm »

Thank you very much, Paul !

Your observations are made the more telling and pointed based on your own personal experience of the damage done to record companies by the practice you describe. The increasing difficulties small record labels face in attempting to find the funding to record more "obscure" music are well-known and have been highlighted repeatedly on this forum.
These difficulties can only be made more acute if potential customers are "encouraged" to download for free  the cds which the companies have struggled to release.

This is the reason why we have a policy on this forum. That policy has been restated repeatedly over recent days.

In line with forum policy and for the reasons articulated above these links will be deleted. This will entail deleting the thread itself.

Once other links have been properly checked and their origin verified those- and only those-which breach forum policy will also be deleted.

Members have posted thousands of links which derive from other sources. I have downloaded most of them during my time as a member. These links will not be deleted!
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guest54
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« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2018, 02:23:30 am »

1) they are not "hosted" here at all, never have been and never will be. The member has no understanding of my post.

2) the member has no authority and is just posing as an administrator, secretly using a hacked password and stolen account. I think he should now admit it, give up this charade, and return the forum to its honest members.

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Latvian
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« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2018, 06:28:01 pm »

It's time to put an to Sydney's wild accusations. Here is the text of the personal message Sydney sent me on March 8th of this year. If he denies having sent this message then either his account was hacked at that time, or he clearly has a severe memory issue. I see no indication in this message that this was intended to be a temporary relinquishment and that he expected to return to administration of the forum. Indeed, in his first sentence he says he is handing over the forum:

Quote
Gentlemen (and ladies?). The time has come to hand over the admin of this forum to some one younger. (Specifically, my eye-sight has become poor and it is difficult to read the screen easily.)

No one has so far volunteered, so I think the best thing to do will be to give the password to a few of the most active and responsible members.

I have found that there is very little needing to be done of late - perhaps I should have done much more to develop new features.

So, once you have decided on who will be the new administrator or administrators, he, she or they can log in with the user and password:

[user ID and password deleted]

Please let me know if there are any questions or problems.

Thanks for all the pleasure and interest you have given in the past, and I look forward to much more.

Sydney Grew
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Greg K
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« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2018, 09:19:56 pm »

While the irrevocable nature of Sydney's "handover" of AMF administration to other members seems evident (even if not explicit), it was advisable that the eventual (rather inchoate) assumption of such authority and duties by Colin and Maris be formally validated by a change in the system password with Sydney's imprimatur AT THAT TIME (the new password being known only to the new administrators).

This not having been done has disastrously allowed the current impasse of discordant understandings and inflamed emotions among the parties involved to threaten the forum's flourishing (if not its continuance) in my judgment.

Provoked by the YouTube imbroglio, Sydney now claims the successor administrators possess no legitimacy, and those current administrators now surreptitiously lock Sydney out of all access to administrative functions he again insists on.

Sydney effectively resigned, and cannot be allowed to regain his former position.  But the new administrators were never clearly and cleanly installed, which leaves something of a taint.

Conclusively though, Sydney must bear the brunt of blame for so incompetently managing a transition he himself initiated, and endure the consequences for himself of that mishandling.

I suggest he accept a status of no more than contributing member, and realize that however scrambled the history he now rebels against, it is in no wise going to be reversed. 

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guest54
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« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2018, 01:37:46 am »

On 28th September, when I dismissed Dundonnell, I set a new simple password: just seven letters "s.....W"

That should still be in place. Only some hacker could have changed it. Who hacked it and why? No one has had the courage to come forward and admit doing it. And why is it being witheld from me?
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Greg K
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« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2018, 04:51:59 am »

What does it mean to "own" a site such as AMF, and can such ownership be effectively distinguished from the function of "administering" or "managing" it?  Does Sydney have any possibly valid argument in contending that he never gave up ownership of AMF, but only allowed others to take over its administration, - an allowance he could subsequently revoke (as continuing owner) should he become displeased with the course taken?

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Greg K
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« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2018, 05:25:27 am »

Thank you very much, Paul !

Your observations are made the more telling and pointed based on your own personal experience of the damage done to record companies by the practice you describe. The increasing difficulties small record labels face in attempting to find the funding to record more "obscure" music are well-known and have been highlighted repeatedly on this forum.
These difficulties can only be made more acute if potential customers are "encouraged" to download for free  the cds which the companies have struggled to release.

Making somewhat ambiguous your argument here is the fact (noted on the forum previously) that Naxos of America have themselves posted on YouTube a voluminous number of their own distributed commercial recordings for easy access by interested consumers (in the US, for example, virtually the entire catalogue of Toccata Classics, - and other labels).
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Latvian
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« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2018, 07:49:21 pm »

Greg K wrote:
Quote
While the irrevocable nature of Sydney's "handover" of AMF administration to other members seems evident (even if not explicit), it was advisable that the eventual (rather inchoate) assumption of such authority and duties by Colin and Maris be formally validated by a change in the system password with Sydney's imprimatur AT THAT TIME (the new password being known only to the new administrators).

This not having been done has disastrously allowed the current impasse of discordant understandings and outraged emotions among the parties involved to threaten the forum's flourishing (if not continuance) in my judgment.

There seemed to be no need to change the password at the time of the handover. Sydney not only relinquished the administration of the forum but essentially tossed it in our laps, unbidden, and walked away.

No outraged emotions on my part, nor Colin's from what I've read so far. Sydney seems to be the only outraged voice here. Me, I'm tending more toward bemused disappointment at Sydney's absurd behavior. I find it sadly reminiscent of a certain well-known American politician who refuses to acknowledge past statements and actions even in the light of irrefutable documentation.

Sydney Grew wrote:
Quote
On 28th September, when I dismissed Dundonnell, I set a new simple password: just seven letters "s.....W"

This is an absurd statement. I don't know where he thinks he set this alleged password but no one has hacked anything. If Sydney "dismissed Dundonnell" as he claims and then set this new password then why didn't he effectively assume control of the forum at that time, rather than whine about hacking?

This foolishness has gone on long enough. So far, I haven't seen a single public post or private message indicating member support for Sydney's wild accusations, and his behavior has become an unwelcome distraction to members engaged in civil discussion and our shared passion for music. If Sydney has a valid case to make, let him make it now, calmly and clearly, with appropriate proof. Otherwise, the administration will consider more serious measures to put this matter to rest if he persists in violating forum rules and making unsupported accusations.
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Neil McGowan
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« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2018, 10:14:51 pm »

This foolishness has gone on long enough.

Indeed it has. Thank you to Latvian and Dundonnell for taking appropriate action.
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Toby Esterhase
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« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2018, 11:06:41 pm »

Putin is guilty (a joke but nowadays..................... ............................. ...)
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paul corfield godfrey
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« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2018, 02:50:40 pm »

When I responded on 6 October to Dundonnell's request for comments, I hardly anticipated the storm of invective and counter-accusation that resulted. Clearly there are issues here which call for resolution between the parties involved.

However the most important feature which my comment on 6 October - the need to ensure that record companies and performers continue to explore the outer fringes of the repertory with some prospect of financial return - seems to have been comprehensively overlooked with the exception of Greg K on 8 October who commented that my arguments appeared to be "somewhat ambiguous". I daresay that the matter is not entirely clear cut either one way or the other, but the argument that Naxos in the USA have posted recordings on YouTube themselves cannot be regarded as conclusive. In the first place, my understanding is that most if not all of Naxos's releases are (or at any rate were at one time) paid for outright at the time of issue and that, therefore, once the initial costs of pressing, distribution and payment to the artists were covered, no further royalties were paid. This means effectively that Naxos can release the recordings on YouTube free of charge without incurring any loss - a commendably generous attitude by the company, but one without any financial consequences either for the label or the artists. The same considerations probably apply to other labels.

Where, however, the company issuing the recording has entered in a contractual agreement with the performers and/or composers to pay royalties on the basis of ongoing sales, the availability of the recording on YouTube will undercut this - and this was the principal point I was trying to make in my original comments on 6 October. This in turn may influence companies and performers to shy away from future releases - which is presumably something which nobody involved with this form wants.

The issue as to whether the recording is being "hosted" on this site or simply "linked" to it is peripheral to this more fundemental consideration. And I have no doubt whatsoever that some of the YouTube links are in breach of the copyright owner's rights, if those owners chose to challenge these (many no doubt will regard the fuss involved as prohibitive, but that is their concern). The existing and long-standing policy, that commercially available recordings should not be made freely available on the internet, seems to me to be both just and eminently sensible. The sheer volume of riches available (including quite a few otherwise unavailable recordings I have myself made available) is surely worth preservation.




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« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2018, 05:45:53 pm »

As I've said in another thread, Naxos has an official channel of which I find no complete postings, just excerpts. I am suspicious that Naxos would ever officially release a full version of any commercial CD on Youtube, regardless of what someone has said on a posting. Personally I imagine Naxos would much rather you utilize their own subscription streaming service instead -- I am strongly doubtful that they would undermine their own streaming service by posting works to Youtube. Anyone can write "provided by Naxos of America" in their description and copy logos when posting a piece of music, that doesn't mean that the company officially supports it.

It is possible, of course, that they "look the other way". That doesn't mean it's "official" however. As a matter of a fact, it is easy enough to see people complaining about Naxos of America issuing copyright claims against a Youtube work (see this Reddit thread on someone being given notice for using game music from Civilization 5) so it might be more of a case of "why bother?" for a low viewer count piece of obscure classical music that the poster might not even be trying to monetize.
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