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Dutton?


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Vandermolen
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« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2018, 01:14:11 pm »

I forgot about the HB releases! ( hope Johan from GMG Forum is not reading this  Shocked). The Dutton CD of Brian's Symphony 10 was VG but made me realise how accomplished that ancient Leicestershire Schools SO recording was. Coincidentally have just been listening to an audio CD of Stevenson's 'Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde' in my car with accompanying chamber music by Josef (Joseph) Holbrooke which, I think works very well in that context as it has a slightly dark and spooky quality to it. I think that I prefer Holbrooke's chamber music to his orchestral music although I need to listen to my Holbrooke CDs again.
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« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2018, 02:46:19 pm »

Have you listened to the John Veale/John Gardner cd again, Jeffrey? I was bowled over by the Veale-as was Christo
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Christo
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« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2018, 03:31:24 pm »

I forgot about the HB releases! (hope Johan from GMG Forum is not reading this  Shocked).
We';ll DM him to let him know.  Grin
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… music is not only an `entertainment’, nor a mere luxury, but a necessity of the spiritual if not of the physical life, an opening of those magic casements through which we can catch a glimpse of that country where ultimate reality will be found.  RVW, 1948
Vandermolen
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« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2018, 05:01:12 pm »

I forgot about the HB releases! (hope Johan from GMG Forum is not reading this  Shocked).
We';ll DM him to let him know.  Grin

You'll do NO SUCH THING  Cool
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Grandenorm
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« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2018, 11:51:09 am »

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I also wish that Dutton would record Ruth Gipps's wonderful 4th Symphony.

Amen to that. Cameo Classics were considering it at one time, but it didn't happen. Cameo seem to have disappeared altogether - and I've lost touch with David Kent Watson.
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« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2018, 01:10:22 pm »

I do so agree about Ruth Gipps Smiley  Unforgiveably I have often omitted her from lists of British symphonists. There are broadcast recordings of the Symphonies Nos. 3 and 4 in our British Music Archive. These date from 1969 and 1983 respectively-No.3 conducted by the composer and No.4 by Sir John Pritchard. IF Richard Itter made off-air recordings then they would make an ideal coupling for Lyrita (73 minutes in total).But, since we don't know what Itter recorded and what he did not or whether his tapes are salvageable and since we are certainly NOT going to be told we could speculate until hell freezes over

There is a performance of Symphony No. 5 in the Archive but it is basically a run-through with the London Repertoire orchestra. I am lucky enough to have the Classico cd of No.2.

Since Gipps was a composer in the broadly RVW tradition one would say that her music should suit Dutton but I can well imagine that Dutton would need a very generous donation to finance new recordings.

Btw: what news of the Holbrooke disc from CPO?? Surely Howard Griffiths himself would rather that his efforts were on our shelves rather than in the CPO vaults? These vaults must now contain as much treasure as do ours here
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« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2018, 02:47:53 pm »

Yes,I'm hoping I will get to hear that promised Cpo of Holbrooke. Imho,in terms of the performances,the last volume was the best Holbrook cd ever!! I thought it was absolutely superb. I can only hope that Howard Griffiths and Cpo maintain their enthusiasm.
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Toby Esterhase
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« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2018, 03:15:48 pm »

I do so agree about Ruth Gipps Smiley  Unforgiveably I have often omitted her from lists of British symphonists. There are broadcast recordings of the Symphonies Nos. 3 and 4 in our British Music Archive. These date from 1969 and 1983 respectively-No.3 conducted by the composer and No.4 by Sir John Pritchard. IF Richard Itter made off-air recordings then they would make an ideal coupling for Lyrita (73 minutes in total).But, since we don't know what Itter recorded and what he did not or whether his tapes are salvageable and since we are certainly NOT going to be told we could speculate until hell freezes over

There is a performance of Symphony No. 5 in the Archive but it is basically a run-through with the London Repertoire orchestra. I am lucky enough to have the Classico cd of No.2.

Since Gipps was a composer in the broadly RVW tradition one would say that her music should suit Dutton but I can well imagine that Dutton would need a very generous donation to finance new recordings.

Btw: what news of the Holbrooke disc from CPO?? Surely Howard Griffiths himself would rather that his efforts were on our shelves rather than in the CPO vaults? These vaults must now contain as much treasure as do ours here

Dear Dundonnell
IMHO would be a good developement a series devoted to women composer Gipps,Lutyens,Madeleine Dring,Freda Swain ,Howell,Coulthard,Hyde,Mirrie Hill
Best
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Vandermolen
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« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2018, 10:46:35 am »

I do so agree about Ruth Gipps Smiley  Unforgiveably I have often omitted her from lists of British symphonists. There are broadcast recordings of the Symphonies Nos. 3 and 4 in our British Music Archive. These date from 1969 and 1983 respectively-No.3 conducted by the composer and No.4 by Sir John Pritchard. IF Richard Itter made off-air recordings then they would make an ideal coupling for Lyrita (73 minutes in total).But, since we don't know what Itter recorded and what he did not or whether his tapes are salvageable and since we are certainly NOT going to be told we could speculate until hell freezes over

There is a performance of Symphony No. 5 in the Archive but it is basically a run-through with the London Repertoire orchestra. I am lucky enough to have the Classico cd of No.2.

Since Gipps was a composer in the broadly RVW tradition one would say that her music should suit Dutton but I can well imagine that Dutton would need a very generous donation to finance new recordings.

Btw: what news of the Holbrooke disc from CPO?? Surely Howard Griffiths himself would rather that his efforts were on our shelves rather than in the CPO vaults? These vaults must now contain as much treasure as do ours here

I wish that a company would at least issue the John Pritchard recording of Symphony 4 on CD. That would be much less expensive than funding a new recording - great as that would be. I also have the ClassicO recording of her Second Symphony which I really like although, from what I've heard No.4 seems her masterpiece. The symphonies of Wilfred Josephs and Gordon Jacob's Double Piano Concerto are also gaps in the CD catalogue. I always have to think, whenever I type their names, if there is an 's' at the end! Think I've got it right. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2018, 09:23:54 pm »

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The symphonies of Wilfred Josephs and Gordon Jacob's Double Piano Concerto are also gaps in the CD catalogue.


The lack of Wilfred Josephs' symphonies among commercial recordings seems particularly glaring, seeing that he produced twelve and only are available, as far as I know. He is seems to be rarely mentioned in overviews of British music, symphonic and otherwise. While I don't profess great familiarity or deep affection for any of the works of his that I've heard, I certainly don't find them offensive or problematical in any way. Perhaps someone more locally familiar with the politics of the British music scene (Colin, perhaps?) can enlighten us. Is his music disdained in some circles? I do see in one bio online that many of his works were composed to commission, which implies that a great many individuals and/or organizations must have thought highly enough of him to offer him commissions.
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« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2018, 01:20:34 am »

Since Latvian has asked me about the neglect of the music of Wilfred Josephs:

There are I suppose around 30 British symphonists of the mid to late 20th century who might very broadly be placed in a sort of second division of composers. (Behind that is composers like Britten, Walton, Tippett and a few others.)

Whatever the intrinsic "merits" of their music-which of course could be endlessly debated, with vigorous disagreements-the "popularity" or indeed survival of the work of these composers is often dependent on a range of diverse factors. Some might characterise these as "luck".

There are a few who enjoyed the passionate support of people with some influence in the British musical scene. An obvious example would be Havergal Brian. Brian's music was championed by the composer Robert Simpson. As a music producer at the BBC Simpson drove forward the project to have as many as possible of Brian's symphonies broadcast. Brian's music (and to an extent his life story) began to attract a cult following. Malcolm MacDonald wrote his acclaimed three volume study. From various and different sources money was made available to launch cd recordings. The rest is history.
Others enjoyed the support of particular conductors who, usually from a regional "power-base", could persuade the BBC to broacast the music. Sir Edward Downes tirelessly promoted the music of George Lloyd and shortly afterwards Albany began its series of recordings. Bryden Thomson, in Manchester with the BBC Northern Symphony Orchestra and in Wales with the BBC Welsh Symphony Orchestra, championed composers like Daniel Jones.

If a composer was outside the London musical scene or the academic world of the music academies but had a regional presence and if that region had a BBC orchestra and an interested conductor then the composer's music could be performed and broadcast. This certainly helped composers like Daniel Jones, Alun Hoddinott and William Mathias in Wales or composers like Iain Hamilton (although he lived in London and, for a substantial time, in the USA), Robin Orr, Thomas Wilson and (the adoped Scot) William Wordsworth in Scotland. Arthur Butterworth was well-known in Manchester and with the local orchestras in Yorkshire.

The "popularity" of these composers faded quickly after their deaths or the deaths of those conductors who had performed their music. A new generation of younger conductors and BBC music producers had much less interest in keeping the music "alive".

For a fortunate few the British record companies like Chandos, Hyperion and, particularly, Lyrita and Dutton made their music accessible through cds. Thus the music of Richard Arnell and Stanley Bate was brought back from oblivion.Hyperion recorded all the Robert Simpson symphonies. A German record label-CPO- remarkably recorded the symphonies of Benjamin Frankel and Humphrey Searle. Toccata appears to be doing the same for William Wordsworth.

Why these composers? Some of it is down to the particular musical tastes of the owners of the record companies. Much is down to whether or not there are people with enough money or access to it to subsidise recordings.

And where does this leave Wilfred Josephs? He wrote twelve symphonies. There is one on cd (No.5). Two have never been performed (Nos. 6 and 12). Of the seven which were composed after 1971 (when the composer was still only 44), ie after No.5, only No.10 was performed by a full, professional orchestra (No.10 by the London Philharmonic Orchestra under Vernon Handley in Norwich in 1985 but not broadcast). Josephs hailed from Newcastle in the north-east of England. He wrote a great deal of music to accompany TV series.  His reputation suffered from a lack of exposure and from a wide consensus based on preconceptions. Even before his death in 1997 Josephs could not get his new large-scale orchestral compositions performed at all, let alone broadcast. After his death he was well-nigh forgotten.

Does his music deserve this fate? That remains a matter of opinion based on listening to the music we can hear in off-air recordings. Will it re-emerge? I doubt it. The music is not the sort of "warmly romantic" (Bate or Arnell or Arthur Butterworth) which would interest (or should one say did interest) Dutton. There are off-air recordings of Symphonies Nos. 1, 3, 4 and 7. Will Lyrita re-master these for cd? Who knows.....but I have my doubts.

I hope this goes some way to address your question, Maris Grin
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« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2018, 10:33:16 am »

Not addressed to me I know but very interesting analysis Colin. Wilfred Joseph's film and TV music was highly effective ('The Great War', 'Cider with Rosie' etc). Even these works are no longer, as far as I'm aware, on CD and I suspect may never have been on CD.
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« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2018, 12:43:48 pm »

Thank you, Colin, for your lengthy dissertation!  Smiley

Things are pretty much as I imagined. I'll have to re-read it carefully and digest it before commenting further. I'm also going to have to spend some time with Josephs' music as well. it's been a couple of years since I listened to anything of his and perhaps herein lies a part of the problem -- right now I can't recall a single note of his music, nor can I even summon any recollection or overall impression of his style.
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patmos.beje
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« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2018, 02:59:01 pm »


Back to Dutton!  Grin Wink  My copy of the Ina Boyle CD dropped through the letter box today.  I have ripped it, uploaded the track list to iTunes and am listening to it for the second time.  Accomplished scores of attractive lyrical music mostly pastoral in mood.  The Violin Concerto we've heard before but the other music also proves worth listening to. 
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« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2018, 03:32:13 pm »

Indeed It is absolutely inevitable that discussion of a particular topic on a forum such as this will go off on at least one and often several different tangents.I am as "guilty" of tangential discussion as anyone. There is a fine balance between "going with the flow" of such discussion and attempting to curtail it.I should have responded to Latvian's question by locating my "essay" on Wilfred Josephs in a separate thread.

What I don't want to start doing is chiding members for "irrelevance"

My own copies of the Ina Boyle and the Stanford concertos arrived today and I shall report back once I have listened to them.
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