The Art-Music Forum
October 23, 2017, 10:29:36 am
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Here you may discover hundreds of little-known composers, hear thousands of long-forgotten compositions, contribute your own rare (non-copyright) recordings, and discuss all the Arts in an erudite and decorous atmosphere full of freedom and delight. To participate, simply log in or register.
 
  Home Help Search Gallery Staff List Login Register  

Discarded, withdrawn, suppressed early Symphonies.


Pages: 1 2 [3]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Discarded, withdrawn, suppressed early Symphonies.  (Read 579 times)
Dundonnell
Level 8
********

Times thanked: 86
Offline Offline

Posts: 3726


View Profile WWW
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2017, 05:08:22 pm »

what about Sibelius's  sketches for his 8th symphony... actually the movements were "burned" in the fireplace...or were they??  some fragments were pulled out of the fire and survived... he delegated to his son in law the task of burning them up....  well you can read all the rumors about that, they are on the web.

Although you are quite right to return this thread to the subject of Music you seem to be ignoring the fact that the thread is about "Discarded, withdrawn, suppressed early symphonies". Sibelius's "8th" is hardly "early"!
Report Spam   Logged
M. Yaskovsky
Level 3
***

Times thanked: 26
Offline Offline

Posts: 128


View Profile
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2017, 06:33:39 pm »

Europa is a conglomerate of countries at best.

Agree, some try to live together. Although Juncker must be a fine man at home, he (and many others) try too hard to make Europeans of us. As a Dutchie I'll never understand Germans completely (as an example).
Report Spam   Logged
Gauk
Level 7
*******

Times thanked: 42
Offline Offline

Posts: 1053



View Profile
« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2017, 09:49:02 am »

Because of separate cultural and linguistic histories, each nation does have an individual musical character, at least so far as folk-inflected music goes. So RVW is quintessentially English in character, while Grace Williams is a conspicuously Welsh composer, drawing on quite a different cultural background.
...I don't see this as applicable much today, either within UK or indeed elsewhere. Even Elgar doesn't sound "English" to me. Take four English composers born in 1943 (two of them actually on the same day) - Brian Ferneyhough, Gavin Bryars, the aforementioned David Matthews and Robin Holloway; would anyone listening to the work of all of them be expected even to assume the country in which each originated, let alone that they all came from the same one?

This is a very interesting question. Obviously, nationality is more evident in tonal music where there is more likelihood of folk-inflected melody. But:

(a) There are still composers today who show folk influences. I would counter your examples with Eddie McGuire and James MacMillan, who are recognisably Scottish.
(b) A sort of national style may also be evident through a teaching tradition. I think if one heard a piece by, say, Miloslav Kabeláč (admittedly b. 1908) without knowing the composer, one could at least identify it as Czech.
(c) I suspect you could pick four American composers born in 1943 whose music is obviously American.

Incidentally, regarding other posts in this thread, I do regard myself as a European. My best friends are spread around Spain, Italy, Germany, Czechia, Slovenia, Switzerland, Norway ...
Report Spam   Logged
ahinton
Level 6
******

Times thanked: 25
Offline Offline

Posts: 846


View Profile WWW
« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2017, 02:11:48 pm »

Europa is a conglomerate of countries at best.

Agree, some try to live together. Although Juncker must be a fine man at home, he (and many others) try too hard to make Europeans of us. As a Dutchie I'll never understand Germans completely (as an example).
But neither Juncker nor anyone else needs to make, or try to make, Europeans out of people who are already Europeans! In any case, being a European doesn't obligate those who are so to understand everything about people from another European state; furthermore, individual states and cultural influences and input therein change over time all the time - just consider how many Poles lived in UK a century ago and the number that do so now. I'm not in favour of undue union between European states but far better at least some than the kind of disunity that can lead to wars and has indeed done so in the past, as well we all know.
Report Spam   Logged
ahinton
Level 6
******

Times thanked: 25
Offline Offline

Posts: 846


View Profile WWW
« Reply #34 on: September 15, 2017, 02:26:32 pm »

Because of separate cultural and linguistic histories, each nation does have an individual musical character, at least so far as folk-inflected music goes. So RVW is quintessentially English in character, while Grace Williams is a conspicuously Welsh composer, drawing on quite a different cultural background.
...I don't see this as applicable much today, either within UK or indeed elsewhere. Even Elgar doesn't sound "English" to me. Take four English composers born in 1943 (two of them actually on the same day) - Brian Ferneyhough, Gavin Bryars, the aforementioned David Matthews and Robin Holloway; would anyone listening to the work of all of them be expected even to assume the country in which each originated, let alone that they all came from the same one?

This is a very interesting question. Obviously, nationality is more evident in tonal music where there is more likelihood of folk-inflected melody. But:

(a) There are still composers today who show folk influences. I would counter your examples with Eddie McGuire and James MacMillan, who are recognisably Scottish.
(b) A sort of national style may also be evident through a teaching tradition. I think if one heard a piece by, say, Miloslav Kabeláč (admittedly b. 1908) without knowing the composer, one could at least identify it as Czech.
(c) I suspect you could pick four American composers born in 1943 whose music is obviously American.

Incidentally, regarding other posts in this thread, I do regard myself as a European. My best friends are spread around Spain, Italy, Germany, Czechia, Slovenia, Switzerland, Norway ...
With regard to (a), I wouldn't say that "nationality is (my italics) more evident in tonal music where there is more likelihood of folk-inflected melody" but that it can be so should the composer so desire or intend; there's also the possibility of a kind of self-imposed musical "nationality" in which, for example, James MacMillan (whom you mention) could be cited as an example whereas James Dillon largely could not, I think. I'm also reminded of my compatriot Thea Musgrave's comment about being a woman and a composer but rarely at the same time, which could as easily be paraphrased as being a Scot and a composer but not necessarily at the same time unless the composer feels so disposed; I would say that I fall into the latter category. I've written a couple of pieces that could be said to espouse certain things Scottish but that was deliberate although at the same time not the way I would usually go about writing - and I'm one of them tonal composers! Then there's the argument about what folk or folk-inspired music might be for a composer; I'm thinking here of Elgar's retort to someone who accused him of unwillingness to engage with English folk traditions in his work, namely that he was a composer and one of the folk, therefore he wrote folk music.

With (b) a "national style" might once have been "evident through a teaching tradition" but not for quite some time, I think; also many composers study in countries other than their own and have done for many decades.

As to (c), I sought to cite four English composers born in the same year to illustrate differences rather than commonalities and, whilst one could indeed cite four American composers born in 1943 to illustrate similarities (although I can't for the moment think who I would name in such a context), what does it mean to be an "American" composer? Thomson and Carter have each, independently of one another (as far as I know), answered that question by asserting that it simply means having to be an American citizen and then writing just whatever you want.

We seem to have departed from the thread topic rather, so perhaps a new thread centring on points made in the last few posts here might be a good idea!
Report Spam   Logged

Pages: 1 2 [3]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal
Bookmark this site! | Upgrade This Forum
SMF For Free - Create your own Forum

Buy traffic for your forum/website
traffic-masters
Powered by SMF | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines