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Discarded, withdrawn, suppressed early Symphonies.


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Author Topic: Discarded, withdrawn, suppressed early Symphonies.  (Read 579 times)
Dundonnell
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« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2017, 03:47:41 pm »

I totally agree with the accolade you award to David Matthews
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relm1
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« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2017, 01:00:37 am »

One of England's finest living symphonists with 9 symphonies to his name wrote about 2 symphonies before his official "Symphony No. 1", although I do not know if any of them still exist; I refer here to David Matthews.

Interesting.  I too am a fan of his.  It is interesting how different stylistically he is from Colin Matthews.  I like quite a bit of Colin's music as well but he is a bit more hit or miss for me.  I think his "Cortege" is a very fine and intense Mahler style work.  You don't really get that Germanic sense in David's music since he seems more rooted in England (or is it British Dundonnell?  Someone needs to explain the nomenclature and its historical implication to us yanks). 
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Dundonnell
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« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2017, 04:55:48 pm »

One of England's finest living symphonists with 9 symphonies to his name wrote about 2 symphonies before his official "Symphony No. 1", although I do not know if any of them still exist; I refer here to David Matthews.

Interesting.  I too am a fan of his.  It is interesting how different stylistically he is from Colin Matthews.  I like quite a bit of Colin's music as well but he is a bit more hit or miss for me.  I think his "Cortege" is a very fine and intense Mahler style work.  You don't really get that Germanic sense in David's music since he seems more rooted in England (or is it British Dundonnell?  Someone needs to explain the nomenclature and its historical implication to us yanks). 

Briefly Grin the United Kingdom is made up of England, Scotland and Wales (often collectively called "Great Britain" and Northern Ireland. Scotland was an independent country until 1707 when it united with England, although the two countries had shared the same monarch from 1603 when the Scottish King, James VI inherited the crown of England from his cousin, Queen Elizabeth i. Although the Scottish Parliament was abolished in 1707 Scotland kept and still keeps its own separate and different legal system and educational system. Now that Devolution has given Scotland (and Wales) their own Assemblies (parliaments without full powers) the U.K. has moved somewhat towards the Federal model as in Canada, Australia and, of course, the USA as well as European countries like Germany and, currently much in the news, Spain!!

There is ongoing debate (often very bitter) about whether Scotland should return to full independence- just as there is in Catalonia which is trying to secede from the rest of Spain. Even however if, as a Scot, one does not support independence most Scots are proud to be Scottish.

....and, after all, there are plenty of New Yorkers who think that they have not much in common with the people in California and vice versa Grin

Btw the British Queen is also Queen of Canada, Australia and New Zealand.....although these countries MAY opt to become Republics one day.

(This is a very abbreviated attempt to answer the question about nomenclature and historical significance and I have tried to reduce it to its most basic!)
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relm1
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« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2017, 01:50:14 am »

One of England's finest living symphonists with 9 symphonies to his name wrote about 2 symphonies before his official "Symphony No. 1", although I do not know if any of them still exist; I refer here to David Matthews.

Interesting.  I too am a fan of his.  It is interesting how different stylistically he is from Colin Matthews.  I like quite a bit of Colin's music as well but he is a bit more hit or miss for me.  I think his "Cortege" is a very fine and intense Mahler style work.  You don't really get that Germanic sense in David's music since he seems more rooted in England (or is it British Dundonnell?  Someone needs to explain the nomenclature and its historical implication to us yanks). 

Briefly Grin the United Kingdom is made up of England, Scotland and Wales (often collectively called "Great Britain" and Northern Ireland. Scotland was an independent country until 1707 when it united with England, although the two countries had shared the same monarch from 1603 when the Scottish King, James VI inherited the crown of England from his cousin, Queen Elizabeth i. Although the Scottish Parliament was abolished in 1707 Scotland kept and still keeps its own separate and different legal system and educational system. Now that Devolution has given Scotland (and Wales) their own Assemblies (parliaments without full powers) the U.K. has moved somewhat towards the Federal model as in Canada, Australia and, of course, the USA as well as European countries like Germany and, currently much in the news, Spain!!

There is ongoing debate (often very bitter) about whether Scotland should return to full independence- just as there is in Catalonia which is trying to secede from the rest of Spain. Even however if, as a Scot, one does not support independence most Scots are proud to be Scottish.

....and, after all, there are plenty of New Yorkers who think that they have not much in common with the people in California and vice versa Grin

Btw the British Queen is also Queen of Canada, Australia and New Zealand.....although these countries MAY opt to become Republics one day.

(This is a very abbreviated attempt to answer the question about nomenclature and historical significance and I have tried to reduce it to its most basic!)

Thank you for the brief explanation of the complicated history.  I studied some time in Ireland and felt bitterness but didn't understand.  Much appreciated.  So each of these regions of very strong national identities, correct?  So it could be insulting to call a Scotsman Welsh for example? I recall in London that all got along until booz was introduced where they let their real feelings be heard.  Meanwhile there are also colonists adding to the complexity. I know some from Scotland who are fiercely independent minded but this is difficult for yanks to reconcile with brexit people who want isolation and their own individual national identity.  Dundonnell, I would love to meet you for dinner or for a pint and understand this better but sadly I am broke and live thousands of miles away. 
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Dundonnell
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« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2017, 02:25:45 pm »

I would rather not divert this thread too far from it original purpose Grin but I personally think of myself as both Scottish and British in equal measure (just as, I suspect, many think of themselves as both Bavarians and Germans!). Cilgwyn on this site is Welsh so he would be able to tell you whether he also feels British as well Grin

The most obvious parallel for you if you live in the USA would be north of your border: in Quebec French is spoken and there have been a number of attempts to persuade the people of Quebec to vote for independence from the rest of Canada (all of which have failed). In the USA you fought a Civil War over the rights of states to secede from the Union Sad
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christopher
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« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2017, 04:08:03 pm »

One of England's finest living symphonists with 9 symphonies to his name wrote about 2 symphonies before his official "Symphony No. 1", although I do not know if any of them still exist; I refer here to David Matthews.

Interesting.  I too am a fan of his.  It is interesting how different stylistically he is from Colin Matthews.  I like quite a bit of Colin's music as well but he is a bit more hit or miss for me.  I think his "Cortege" is a very fine and intense Mahler style work.  You don't really get that Germanic sense in David's music since he seems more rooted in England (or is it British Dundonnell?  Someone needs to explain the nomenclature and its historical implication to us yanks). 

Briefly Grin the United Kingdom is made up of England, Scotland and Wales (often collectively called "Great Britain" and Northern Ireland. Scotland was an independent country until 1707 when it united with England, although the two countries had shared the same monarch from 1603 when the Scottish King, James VI inherited the crown of England from his cousin, Queen Elizabeth i. Although the Scottish Parliament was abolished in 1707 Scotland kept and still keeps its own separate and different legal system and educational system. Now that Devolution has given Scotland (and Wales) their own Assemblies (parliaments without full powers) the U.K. has moved somewhat towards the Federal model as in Canada, Australia and, of course, the USA as well as European countries like Germany and, currently much in the news, Spain!!

There is ongoing debate (often very bitter) about whether Scotland should return to full independence- just as there is in Catalonia which is trying to secede from the rest of Spain. Even however if, as a Scot, one does not support independence most Scots are proud to be Scottish.

....and, after all, there are plenty of New Yorkers who think that they have not much in common with the people in California and vice versa Grin

Btw the British Queen is also Queen of Canada, Australia and New Zealand.....although these countries MAY opt to become Republics one day.

(This is a very abbreviated attempt to answer the question about nomenclature and historical significance and I have tried to reduce it to its most basic!)

Thank you for the brief explanation of the complicated history.  I studied some time in Ireland and felt bitterness but didn't understand.  Much appreciated.  So each of these regions of very strong national identities, correct?  So it could be insulting to call a Scotsman Welsh for example? I recall in London that all got along until booz was introduced where they let their real feelings be heard.  Meanwhile there are also colonists adding to the complexity. I know some from Scotland who are fiercely independent minded but this is difficult for yanks to reconcile with brexit people who want isolation and their own individual national identity.  Dundonnell, I would love to meet you for dinner or for a pint and understand this better but sadly I am broke and live thousands of miles away. 

They are not regions, they are nations and countries, which collectively make up the UK.  It's really not hard...
The UK has four constituent nations (plus some other bits). 
The USA has 50 constituent states (plus some other bits).

Dundonnel when you say ""Btw the British Queen is also Queen of Canada, Australia and New Zealand.....although these countries MAY opt to become Republics one day. - and equally Britain MAY do the same.  Remember that she is not the British Queen in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Jamaica, Belize, Papua New Guinea and the rest - she is the Canadian Queen, Australian Queen, New Zealand Queen, Jamaican Queen etc etc.  They are separate monarchies with their own constitutions and rules who happen to be united in one person.  See (for example) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchy_of_Canada
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« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2017, 05:25:39 pm »

Indeed  You are of course quite correct. Important distinctions are often the victims of attempts at simplification
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ahinton
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« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2017, 05:29:59 pm »

One of England's finest living symphonists with 9 symphonies to his name wrote about 2 symphonies before his official "Symphony No. 1", although I do not know if any of them still exist; I refer here to David Matthews.

Interesting.  I too am a fan of his.  It is interesting how different stylistically he is from Colin Matthews.  I like quite a bit of Colin's music as well but he is a bit more hit or miss for me.  I think his "Cortege" is a very fine and intense Mahler style work.  You don't really get that Germanic sense in David's music since he seems more rooted in England (or is it British Dundonnell?  Someone needs to explain the nomenclature and its historical implication to us yanks). 

Briefly Grin the United Kingdom is made up of England, Scotland and Wales (often collectively called "Great Britain" and Northern Ireland. Scotland was an independent country until 1707 when it united with England, although the two countries had shared the same monarch from 1603 when the Scottish King, James VI inherited the crown of England from his cousin, Queen Elizabeth i. Although the Scottish Parliament was abolished in 1707 Scotland kept and still keeps its own separate and different legal system and educational system. Now that Devolution has given Scotland (and Wales) their own Assemblies (parliaments without full powers) the U.K. has moved somewhat towards the Federal model as in Canada, Australia and, of course, the USA as well as European countries like Germany and, currently much in the news, Spain!!

There is ongoing debate (often very bitter) about whether Scotland should return to full independence- just as there is in Catalonia which is trying to secede from the rest of Spain. Even however if, as a Scot, one does not support independence most Scots are proud to be Scottish.

....and, after all, there are plenty of New Yorkers who think that they have not much in common with the people in California and vice versa Grin

Btw the British Queen is also Queen of Canada, Australia and New Zealand.....although these countries MAY opt to become Republics one day.

(This is a very abbreviated attempt to answer the question about nomenclature and historical significance and I have tried to reduce it to its most basic!)

Thank you for the brief explanation of the complicated history.  I studied some time in Ireland and felt bitterness but didn't understand.  Much appreciated.  So each of these regions of very strong national identities, correct?  So it could be insulting to call a Scotsman Welsh for example? I recall in London that all got along until booz was introduced where they let their real feelings be heard.  Meanwhile there are also colonists adding to the complexity. I know some from Scotland who are fiercely independent minded but this is difficult for yanks to reconcile with brexit people who want isolation and their own individual national identity.  Dundonnell, I would love to meet you for dinner or for a pint and understand this better but sadly I am broke and live thousands of miles away. 
Calling a Scotsman Welsh isn't by nature insulting: it would simply be incorrect (other, perhaps, then in cases such as Ronald Stevenson who was Scots on his father's side and Welsh on his mother's, although I've never heard him referred to other than as a Scottish composer). Speaking personally, I'm a European first, a Scot second and a Brit last.

Anyway - back to the topic!
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« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2017, 11:42:00 pm »

Well, I'm not a European. I only live in Europe. In my opinion Europeans don't exist. I'm dutch.
Europe is no country like the USA. Europa is a conglomerate of countries at best.
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« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2017, 09:39:01 am »

Calloing a Scotsman Welsh isn't by nature insulting: it would simply be incorrect (other, perhaps, then in cases such as Ronald Stevenson who was Scots on his father's side and Welsh on his mother's, although I've never heard him referred to other than as a Scottish composer). Speaking personally, I'm a European first, a Scot second and a Brit last.

Anyway - back to the topic!

On the other hand, Scots do find it offensive when the whole of the UK is referred to as "England", which is very common. There is a clear analogy between the music of the four nations and sport. There is seldom a "British team"; there will be a Scottish team, a Welsh team and so on, and there is fierce rivalry. Traditionally, a Scot will support whichever team is playing against England in a match, and it doesn't matter who.

Because of separate cultural and linguistic histories, each nation does have an individual musical character, at least so far as folk-inflected music goes. So RVW is quintessentially English in character, while Grace Williams is a conspicuously Welsh composer, drawing on quite a different cultural background.

In the case of Northern Ireland, matters are complicated by the partition of 1922. The obvious Irish composer before that date is Hamilton Harty; one could argue about Stanford. In contemporary music, there are obviously many Irish composers, but I am struggling to think of a Northern Irish composer beyond Philip Hammond (b. 1951 and not to be confused with the current Chancellor), who is generally described just as Irish.

This may be a bit off the topic of the thread, but I think it's important to get things clear.
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ahinton
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« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2017, 12:12:03 pm »

Calloing a Scotsman Welsh isn't by nature insulting: it would simply be incorrect (other, perhaps, then in cases such as Ronald Stevenson who was Scots on his father's side and Welsh on his mother's, although I've never heard him referred to other than as a Scottish composer). Speaking personally, I'm a European first, a Scot second and a Brit last.

Anyway - back to the topic!
On the other hand, Scots do find it offensive when the whole of the UK is referred to as "England", which is very common.
True!

There is a clear analogy between the music of the four nations and sport. There is seldom a "British team"; there will be a Scottish team, a Welsh team and so on, and there is fierce rivalry. Traditionally, a Scot will support whichever team is playing against England in a match, and it doesn't matter who.
That's also largely true, but...

Because of separate cultural and linguistic histories, each nation does have an individual musical character, at least so far as folk-inflected music goes. So RVW is quintessentially English in character, while Grace Williams is a conspicuously Welsh composer, drawing on quite a different cultural background.
...I don't see this as applicable much today, either within UK or indeed elsewhere. Even Elgar doesn't sound "English" to me. Take four English composers born in 1943 (two of them actually on the same day) - Brian Ferneyhough, Gavin Bryars, the aforementioned David Matthews and Robin Holloway; would anyone listening to the work of all of them be expected even to assume the country in which each originated, let alone that they all came from the same one?
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ahinton
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« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2017, 12:16:00 pm »

Well, I'm not a European. I only live in Europe. In my opinion Europeans don't exist. I'm dutch.
Europe is no country like the USA. Europa is a conglomerate of countries at best.
You're "not a European", yet you're "Dutch"? How did you manage that?! I didnt suggest that Europe is a country (for obviously it is not), but to come from Europe as you do surely means that you are European like everyone else who is Dutch? If this haphazardly and clumsily conducted Brexit business concludes with UK leaving EU in one form or another (which please God or whoever else it won't), Brits won't suddenly cease to be Europeans!
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Neil McGowan
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« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2017, 01:24:15 pm »

Well, I'm not a European. I only live in Europe. In my opinion Europeans don't exist. I'm dutch.
Europe is no country like the USA. Europa is a conglomerate of countries at best.
You're "not a European", yet you're "Dutch"? How did you manage that?! I didnt suggest that Europe is a country (for obviously it is not), but to come from Europe as you do surely means that you are European like everyone else who is Dutch? If this haphazardly and clumsily conducted Brexit business concludes with UK leaving EU in one form or another (which please God or whoever else it won't), Brits won't suddenly cease to be Europeans!

We ought to allow for the distinction between ethnicity and nationality. There are many Scots in New Zealand - for example - who have never spent a instant of their lives in the Northern Hemisphere, yet whose hearts swell proudly on Burns Night.
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ahinton
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« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2017, 01:53:59 pm »

Well, I'm not a European. I only live in Europe. In my opinion Europeans don't exist. I'm dutch.
Europe is no country like the USA. Europa is a conglomerate of countries at best.
You're "not a European", yet you're "Dutch"? How did you manage that?! I didnt suggest that Europe is a country (for obviously it is not), but to come from Europe as you do surely means that you are European like everyone else who is Dutch? If this haphazardly and clumsily conducted Brexit business concludes with UK leaving EU in one form or another (which please God or whoever else it won't), Brits won't suddenly cease to be Europeans!

We ought to allow for the distinction between ethnicity and nationality. There are many Scots in New Zealand - for example - who have never spent a instant of their lives in the Northern Hemisphere, yet whose hearts swell proudly on Burns Night.
Quite so! The same goes for Scots living in England, of course...
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« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2017, 04:31:43 pm »

what about Sibelius's  sketches for his 8th symphony... actually the movements were "burned" in the fireplace...or were they??  some fragments were pulled out of the fire and survived... he delegated to his son in law the task of burning them up....  well you can read all the rumors about that, they are on the web.
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