Double Dutch

[guest128]

I have however just listened again to the Etcetera cd with the Symphonies Nos. 3 and 4. I think that we can agree that both are "exceptionally fine" :)

They are. Though I still hold it that the Second, Piccola Sinfonia, is even finer. Magnificent, I'd say.  ;)

My recording of the Symphony No.2 is one of the better ones (the Residentie Orchestra/van Otterloo). The symphony is indeed a siperb work-I need to watch my adjectives ;D ;D

Well, had you merely called Symphonies 2&3 "magnificent" I would not have groused about it, and even almost nodded my head, - though I believe a descriptive notch lower is where they more truly stand ("exceptional" & "superb").

But to reference Orthel himself as "that magnificent composer" just crossed the line of propriety I felt, and called
for some correction or at least interrogation, given some other of his works that don't impress me and the fact we know so little of his output besides.

"Adjectival discrimination" is indeed important. ;)

[Dundonnell]

Your point was taken and accepted :)

[Christo]

Your point was taken and accepted :)

Oh, but it's far worse. There is no hope of redemption whatsoever: 

There are so much interesting composers: Sibelius, Martinu, Prokofiev, Roussel and hundrets others, but Badings - NO! Just like all the other dutch composers like Röntgen, Pijper, Vermeulen etc. - the Netherlands don't have any music worth to hear :(

 8)

[M. Yaskovsky]

I think it's very unfair to judge Dutch composer as not interesting (Expi) or worthless. As a Dutchman I know we never had a Beethoven or a Brahms or a Sibelius. However I find it very strange, even nationalistic, to think of composers within the borders of countries. We're Europeans, living on that continent for ages, and we've produced the most important composers ever. Period.

[autoharp]

The 4th symphony is magnificent for this listener, as is the 2nd orchestral Scherzo.

[Dundonnell]

I think it's very unfair to judge Dutch composer as not interesting (Expi) or worthless. As a Dutchman I know we never had a Beethoven or a Brahms or a Sibelius. However I find it very strange, even nationalistic, to think of composers within the borders of countries. We're Europeans, living on that continent for ages, and we've produced the most important composers ever. Period.

I would not be too concerned. It was an absurd and nonsensical assertion (it would be too kind to call it a "judgment"). From Bernard Zweers and Cornelis Dopper and Alphons Diepenbrock, through Matthijs Vermeulen, Hendrik Andiressen, Willem Pijper and Henk Badings the Netherlands have produced a number of very fine composers. (There are composers like Julius Rontgen and Jan van Gilse and Johan Wagenaar to add into the mix). I also happen to think that Rudolf Escher is a composer often overlooked but who produced some extremely "interesting" music. I have absolutely no doubt that the overwhelming majority of the members of this site would reject the claim that you quoted.

[Dundonnell]

One of my favourite pieces from Rudolf Escher's short orchestral output:

[Christo]

I know we never had a Beethoven

Actually we had a Beethoven, and he was named Ludwig van Beethoven. But he moved to Bonn (coincidentally Expi's place of living  ;D)

[Christo]

The Dutch Music Institute preserves in its archives the scores of what appears to be, by far, the most prolific Frisian composer and symphonist ever. His name is Cornelis Dokkum (Sneek 1876-1971 Amsterdam) and he was active as an opera conductor in Germany (Berlin) before the outbreak of WWI. He wrote many more compositions, but I list only the symphonies here. The First 'Frisionowic' (after an early Medieval incident in Frisian history) was broadcast live in 1944, but probably none of the others was ever performed (though he prepared the orchestral parts of the Second from 1949 too; also in this archive). I found an extensive interview with the 90 years old composer in a newspaper from 1966, and some more info in art magazines and newspapers from the 1880s til the 1960s, but no reference in any musical encyclopedia or the like. Who can tell me more about the life and work of this professional musician who so completely disappeared from view?

Symphony No. 1  ‘Frisionowic’  (1943) – broadcast performance 1944, Radio SO directed by the composer
Symphony No. 2  (1949)
Symphony No. 3  (1950)
Symphony No. 4  (1952)
Symphony No. 5  (1952)
Symphony No. 6  (1953)
Symphony No. 7  ‘Landelijke’ (‘Rustic') (1954)
Symphony No. 8  (1954)
Symphony No. 9  ‘Boerensymphonie’ (‘Peasant Symphony’) (1954)
Symphony No. 10  ‘Sinfonia Rusticana’ (1955)
Symphony No. 11  (1955)
Symphony No. 12  (1955)
Symphony No. 13  (1956)
Symphony No. 14  (1956)
Symphony in G (No. 15?)  (1959)
Symphony 1961 – 1 (No. 16?)
Symphony 1961 – 2  (No. 17?)
Symphony 1961 – 3  (No. 18?)
Symphony 1961 – 4  (No. 19?)
Symphony 1963 – 1  (No. 20??)
Symphony 1963 – 2 (No. 21??)
Symphony 1964  (No. 22??)
Symphony 1968  (No. 23??)

[guest54]

I can't find him either. But I did find this little book in Dutch, entitled "Netherlands Music in the Nineteenth Century", by J.D.C. van Dokkum.

https://openlibrary.org/works/OL16322904W/Nederlandsche_Muziek_in_de_negentiende_Eeuw

I expect it will contain the names of a few unfamiliar composers.

[Toby Esterhase]

http://www.janpeterdegraaff.com/

[Elroel]

Being Dutch, I still never heard of Jan-Peter de Graaff. Thanks for the link, Toby.

The 1st part of his 'Seven Mouvements' (on Soundcloud) is very listenable.

[guest145]

I've had a great affection for Dutch music ever since the early 1970s, when I hosted a classical radio program for a couple of years and was the lucky recipient of numerous Radio Nederland promotional LPs that I regularly played on my show. The marvelous anthologies they produced back then were a marvelous introduction to many aspects of Dutch classical music and were responsible for awakening in me a great interest in this music.

It seems to me quite unfair to denigrate Dutch music ("Just like all the other dutch composers like Röntgen, Pijper, Vermeulen etc. - the Netherlands don't have any music worth to hear" -- Expi) with a blanket condemnation. I'm not sure if this comment was made out of ignorance, elitism, or some other reason, but I strongly disagree.

Among the many Dutch composers whose music has given me great pleasure, I note especially:
Hendrik Andriessen (espcially the 2nd & 3rd Symphonies)
Lex van Delden
Alphons Diepenbrock (suite from incidental music to "Elektra")
Rudolf Escher (2nd Symphony)
Hans Henkemans
Simeon ten Holt (Lemniscaat)
Otto Ketting
Willem Pijper (3 symphonies, Symphonic Epigrams, opera Halewijn)
Peter Schat (The Heavens)
Matthijs Vermeulen (various symphonies)

I wouldn't classify any of these composers or works as the "greatest" but they certainly have substantial value and have provided great pleasure, enjoyment, and even comfort to me over the years.

[Gauk]

Not forgetting my favourite, Cornelis Dopper, whose music had given me much pleasure over the years. Especially the 7th symphony.

[Dundonnell]

Not forgetting my favourite, Cornelis Dopper, whose music had given me much pleasure over the years. Especially the 7th symphony.

I included Dopper (you will be pleased to see) in my reply on September 9th :)