Vaughn-Williams,Ralph - Sancta Civitas: And I saw a new heaven (Adagio)

[Jolly Roger]

Vaughn-Williams,Ralph - Sancta Civitas: And I saw a new heaven (Adagio)

[relm1]

Vaughn-Williams,Ralph - Sancta Civitas: And I saw a new heaven (Adagio)

That's a sublime performance!  Thanks for posting it.

[Dundonnell]

I have always had a bit of a problem with RVW's professed agnosticism. He wrote so much religious music and so much of it is inspired. It do not for one moment believe that he was motivated by a cynical exploitation of the market for such music in Britain.

However the inner workings of his mind and his particular approach to spirituality in music must remain too personal to a much more complicated man than the avuncular public persona which-to an extent-he played up to in later life.

[relm1]

I have always had a bit of a problem with RVW's professed agnosticism. He wrote so much religious music and so much of it is inspired. It do not for one moment believe that he was motivated by a cynical exploitation of the market for such music in Britain.

However the inner workings of his mind and his particular approach to spirituality in music must remain too personal to a much more complicated man than the avuncular public persona which-to an extent-he played up to in later life.

I think it is possible to be agnostic and still respond to spiritual texts.  It doesn't mean you're cynical or exploiting a market.  One can see beauty and depth in something they don't believe.  For example, the Greek tragedies are masterpieces but you don't have to believe in Zeus or Apollo for them to have powerful moral and philosophical implications.  There is a deeper meaning that resonates and that is what I hear in RVW while setting sacred texts.  He is inspired by the subtext.

[Dundonnell]

I have always had a bit of a problem with RVW's professed agnosticism. He wrote so much religious music and so much of it is inspired. It do not for one moment believe that he was motivated by a cynical exploitation of the market for such music in Britain.

However the inner workings of his mind and his particular approach to spirituality in music must remain too personal to a much more complicated man than the avuncular public persona which-to an extent-he played up to in later life.

I think it is possible to be agnostic and still respond to spiritual texts.  It doesn't mean you're cynical or exploiting a market.  One can see beauty and depth in something they don't believe.  For example, the Greek tragedies are masterpieces but you don't have to believe in Zeus or Apollo for them to have powerful moral and philosophical implications.  There is a deeper meaning that resonates and that is what I hear in RVW while setting sacred texts.

Well put!

[Jolly Roger]

I have always had a bit of a problem with RVW's professed agnosticism. He wrote so much religious music and so much of it is inspired. It do not for one moment believe that he was motivated by a cynical exploitation of the market for such music in Britain.

However the inner workings of his mind and his particular approach to spirituality in music must remain too personal to a much more complicated man than the avuncular public persona which-to an extent-he played up to in later life.

I think it is possible to be agnostic and still respond to spiritual texts.  It doesn't mean you're cynical or exploiting a market.  One can see beauty and depth in something they don't believe.  For example, the Greek tragedies are masterpieces but you don't have to believe in Zeus or Apollo for them to have powerful moral and philosophical implications.  There is a deeper meaning that resonates and that is what I hear in RVW while setting sacred texts.

Well put!

Personally, I have always been very annoyed by the humanist critics who frequently describe RVW as a "mystic" as if there is something wrong or primitive about being a devout Christian. Like most Christians, he may have had some doubt.  But contrary to the humanists, IMHO,No one could write such magnificent spiritual music without a knowledge of the holy spirit.  Making an analogy between Christianity to Greek Legends is like comparing a fine wine to grape juice. again IMHO..

[Elroel]

quotePersonally, I have always been very annoyed by the humanist critics who frequently describe RVW as a "mystic" as if there is something wrong or primitive about being a devout Christian. Like most Christians, he may have had some doubt.  But contrary to the humanists, IMHO,No one could write such magnificent spiritual music without a knowledge of the holy spirit.  Making an analogy between Christianity to Greek Legends is like comparing a fine wine to grape juice. again IMHO..unquote

Also the Greek people deeply believed in their gods, so there is some right in comparing I think.

I am not a religious person, but can feel the deeper sense in many a religious work, and when I can feel that, also a non religious composer can create a work in the 'right spirit', for a religious work that is.
I'm afraid to say that not only 'humanists' act against 'christianity' but 'christians' also try to ridicule a 'non christian' life.

[shamus]

To me, "agnostic" means "I don't know", so I am open to either finding out there's something to the eschatological speculations when I die, or not finding out anything ever at all. In fact I am not sure I "know" anything at all now, they say that grass is not really green, but merely something that absorbs the light rays between blue and yellow. My job is to live my life in such a way that reflects an acceptance of this, trying my best not to allow the anxiety of the unknown oppress me too much. This anxiety is dealt with in innumerable ways by each sentient being. Fortunately some are able to deal with this by creating beautiful things instead of ugly things (hate, war, judgmentalism, intolerance). Vaughan Williams happened to be a creator of the former kind and needs no other label. Masses and works on spiritual themes are some of the most beautiful music ever composed and I love hearing them as I try to deal with my own anxiety. Some very ugly and unhappy people also wrote beautiful music, and I accept the music if not the beliefs of the person who wrote it. It is a struggle sometimes not to be "sure" of anything, especially when someone who is "sure" feels a need to impose their beliefs on another as the only way, therefore this is just my "way" and no one else needs to subscribe to it. However I think many of us believe that serious music is one of the most redeeming things in our brief existences, and thus we celebrate these beautiful sounds we have been given with all our hearts (and souls, perhaps?).

[Christo]

Also the Greek people deeply believed in their gods, so there is some right in comparing I think.

Actually: no, they didn't. It would be a mistake to project the more personal forms of religion found in, say, Christianity or Islam,  'backwards' on those ancients types of religion. (A comparison with some of the later mystery cults makes more sense, though we know little about them too).

[Jolly Roger]

To me, "agnostic" means "I don't know", so I am open to either finding out there's something to the eschatological speculations when I die, or not finding out anything ever at all. In fact I am not sure I "know" anything at all now, they say that grass is not really green, but merely something that absorbs the light rays between blue and yellow. My job is to live my life in such a way that reflects an acceptance of this, trying my best not to allow the anxiety of the unknown oppress me too much. This anxiety is dealt with in innumerable ways by each sentient being. Fortunately some are able to deal with this by creating beautiful things instead of ugly things (hate, war, judgmentalism, intolerance). Vaughan Williams happened to be a creator of the former kind and needs no other label. Masses and works on spiritual themes are some of the most beautiful music ever composed and I love hearing them as I try to deal with my own anxiety. Some very ugly and unhappy people also wrote beautiful music, and I accept the music if not the beliefs of the person who wrote it. It is a struggle sometimes not to be "sure" of anything, especially when someone who is "sure" feels a need to impose their beliefs on another as the only way, therefore this is just my "way" and no one else needs to subscribe to it. However I think many of us believe that serious music is one of the most redeeming things in our brief existences, and thus we celebrate these beautiful sounds we have been given with all our hearts (and souls, perhaps?).

Although I may falsely accused of it, it should be obvious that I do not intend to impose my Christianity upon anyone who is content with their perspective of this world. And I certainly do not regard non-believers as "infidels", which is true intolerance in my mind.. I must also add from personal experience, when I was agnostic, I enjoyed the music immensely. But listening as an imperfect Christian it means so much more to me.  If this is wrong, please excuse me.