Albion
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« on: July 04, 2016, 07:56:35 pm » |
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"A piece is worth your attention, and is itself for you praiseworthy, if it makes you feel you have not wasted your time over it." (Sydney Grew, 1922)
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Grandenorm
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« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2016, 11:37:17 am » |
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Re. the disk in the previous post, two of the pieces, including the major one, are orchestrations by other people! The Clarke concerto is not really a concerto at all. It's an orchestration of her viola sonata. I wish someone would orchestrate and record Holbrooke's 3rd piano concerto, which at least has the merit of being a genuine concerto.
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Dundonnell
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« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2016, 02:12:15 pm » |
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Re. the disk in the previous post, two of the pieces, including the major one, are orchestrations by other people! The Clarke concerto is not really a concerto at all. It's an orchestration of her viola sonata. I wish someone would orchestrate and record Holbrooke's 3rd piano concerto, which at least has the merit of being a genuine concerto.
I am glad that someone else has picked up on this point. I have expressed before my reservations about the number of works recorded by Dutton which are in fact orchestrations of pieces left incomplete or in another form. These have included works by Bax, Moeran, Ireland and Arnell. Martin Yates, the conductor, has been very active in such orchestrations. In some cases this has gone much further than orchestration but has involved a composer's sketches being "realised" into a full-blown work. Thus the Moeran Symphony No.2, the Bax Symphony in F or the Arnell Symphony No.7. Now I and I am sure many others have a great deal of admiration and respect for what Yates has done. We can but be grateful for an opportunity to hear what these works MIGHT have sounded like if the composer had lived long enough or, alternatively, had actually chosen to complete the work himself. But Yates himself would freely admit that what he has done cannot be definitive. There are so many works which do exist in the final form and shape which the composer intended and which deserve to be recorded. I sometimes wish that attention could be concentrated on those rather than on such realisations or orchestrations. No doubt others will disagree :)
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tapiola
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« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2016, 02:16:05 pm » |
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I am told by an unimpeachable source that the Moeran 2nd Symphony is 7/8 Moeran. After many listenings the work has finally clicked for me and I find it an absolutely gorgeous work that was well worth saving. I wrote the conductor and thanked him profusely.
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cilgwyn
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« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2016, 03:07:43 pm » |
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Re. the disk in the previous post, two of the pieces, including the major one, are orchestrations by other people! The Clarke concerto is not really a concerto at all. It's an orchestration of her viola sonata. I wish someone would orchestrate and record Holbrooke's 3rd piano concerto, which at least has the merit of being a genuine concerto.
I am glad that someone else has picked up on this point. I have expressed before my reservations about the number of works recorded by Dutton which are in fact orchestrations of pieces left incomplete or in another form. These have included works by Bax, Moeran, Ireland and Arnell. Martin Yates, the conductor, has been very active in such orchestrations. In some cases this has gone much further than orchestration but has involved a composer's sketches being "realised" into a full-blown work. Thus the Moeran Symphony No.2, the Bax Symphony in F or the Arnell Symphony No.7. Now I and I am sure many others have a great deal of admiration and respect for what Yates has done. We can but be grateful for an opportunity to hear what these works MIGHT have sounded like if the composer had lived long enough or, alternatively, had actually chosen to complete the work himself. But Yates himself would freely admit that what he has done cannot be definitive. There are so many works which do exist in the final form and shape which the composer intended and which deserve to be recorded. I sometimes wish that attention could be concentrated on those rather than on such realisations or orchestrations. No doubt others will disagree :) Until recently,about the only Arnell I had heard was a Piano Concerto,which I have on tape (recorded off air,a few years ago) and a ballet suite conducted by Beecham,which I rather liked. I did know the Seventh Symphony,courtesy of the Dutton Bate cd. I was unimpressed! Unfortunately,that put me off a bit! A few weeks ago I listened to Arnell's Fifth on Youtube and I was really quite 'blown away' (as the cliche goes) as to how powerful it sounded. Please tell me they've run out of things to 'realise' or complete!! :( ;D These first ever realisations of a few bars of something left in a sock drawer really are getting wearisome and annoying. Anyway,even Elgar's 'third' symphony got taken to a charity shop by yours truly. Let's have some Daniel Jones. Do Dutton think he's really that difficult to assimilate?!!
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Dundonnell
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« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2016, 04:47:07 pm » |
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Lyrita is the best chance for Daniel Jones ;D
Richard Arnell's first five symphonies are-in my opinion-glorious examples of late romanticism. The late Bryden Thomson thought the same way as does Cilgwyn about No.5 and could not understand its neglect. Late Arnell is a trifle more 'thorny' but I actually find Martin Yates's realisation of No.7 very moving. The return of the 'big tune' at the end of the work is sublime. It seems to round off Arnell's musical life in quite marvellous fashion.
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Clambert
Level 2
Times thanked: 7
Offline
Posts: 51
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« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2016, 10:15:21 pm » |
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I am told by an unimpeachable source that the Moeran 2nd Symphony is 7/8 Moeran. After many listenings the work has finally clicked for me and I find it an absolutely gorgeous work that was well worth saving. I wrote the conductor and thanked him profusely.
Well that's not been the story that's been told so far? I'd love to know more: I'm afraid I'm still at the stage of waiting for it to "click" - but if it really IS 7/8 Moeran maybe I need to keep trying? For me it currently sounds like pastiche, with none of the psychological depth of the 1st. (Though maybe if one thinks of it as being nearer to the Sinfonietta...?)
But I agree about this trend towards "completions", when there are so many fine completed works still waiting to be explored? (Bantock/Boughton/Butterworth(A)/Baines/Bates etc etc, and that's just the B's from from the UK...) I'm particularly baffled by the trend to orchestrate John Ireland - a composer who very largely depends on being heard (like Mompou) as a solitary voice...
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britishcomposer
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« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2016, 12:11:11 am » |
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Though I think we should better start a Moeran 2 thread I would like to comment on the recent discussion. Movement 1-3 are to a large extent based on Moeran's manuscript. This manuscript has been edited by Fabian Huss and was for some time available as a free download. (I can no longer find it.) I think Martin Yates has described that he used a short motive as the main (new) material to built the otherwise nonexistant fourth movement. He made clear that employing this material was HIS solution for the finale problem, not necessarily Moeran's. Yates creates a great peroration from the main material of the first movement and brings this finale to a succesful close. But to my mind the problem ist this short new finale motive. It lacks the strength of the other themes and the way in which Yates develops it reminds me in sound and structure more of the early symphonies by David Diamond than Moeran!
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tapiola
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I stand by what I wrote. You have my sympathy that you cannot appreciate such a fabulous creation. As in life, Moeran gets short-changed again. In this ever more ugly world of nationalistic xenophobia and Trumpism, I'll take very note by Moeran that I can get!
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jimfin
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The Bax symphony is a complete work, I believe, but just never orchestrated by him. Not that I listen to it very often, if I'm honest, whereas I listen to the Moeran probably at least every fortnight.
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Dundonnell
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I did not wish to make too much of this point and I fully accept that it is unfair to make generalisations about the 'completion' of different works-the starting point for Martin Yates differed from piece to piece.
Nor do I wish to let this relatively minor 'criticism' of Dutton's releases in recent years detract from my immense gratitude to the company for taking up the baton largely abandoned by other companies in regard to the recording of neglected British music. I look forward with eager and unbridled enthusiasm to the arrival of the new Havergal Brian and Gardner/Veale discs. No other company appears likely to have recorded the Gardner (which, to my knowledge, has never been performed in public) or the Veale. John Veale was an exceedingly fine composer-based on the works of his which we have heard. Veale's 1st and 3rd symphonies are available in off-air recordings but are relatively short works. The Second Symphony is a large and obviously major composition and I look forward to hearing it at last.
Yes..Marco Polo recorded Brian's Second Symphony many years ago but that performance was less than satisfactory. All reports from those present at the Dutton recording indicate that the symphony will now be heard in its full glory. To Dutton (and the Havergal Brian Society) Brian enthusiasts owe respect, admiration and huge gratitude.
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cilgwyn
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My Dutton Brian cd arrived this morning. :) Has anyone else had their copy?
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jimfin
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Mine's coming from the HBS, apparently dispatched today, which means I should get it about Tuesday or Wednesday, as post usually takes four or five working days to Japan.
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