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Performers' Information

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Dundonnell
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« on: November 20, 2015, 02:01:52 am »

Whilst it is absolutely wonderful to be able to access uploads on You Tube of repertoire which is not on cd (and I would not wish in any way to offend those incredibly generous people who share their music with us!!) it is, let me just say, unfortunate when information regarding the performers of the music is omitted.

I can appreciate that sometimes this information is not known by the uploader and there may be some sound 'legal' reasons for the information being withheld but it would be so useful to know which orchestra/conductor etc etc are performing the piece in question. I suspect that in many cases-for example the recent uploads of music by Maxwell Davies-the recording is of the premiere of the piece (there may indeed-very sadly-have never been a second performance!) but one cannot be totally sure.

If members very kindly bring a work newly uploaded to YT to our attention AND do know the probable performers perhaps they might share this with us.
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BrianA
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« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2015, 02:55:24 am »

Full disclosure: I really have no idea what I'm talking about.  Having said that, I've always had some sort of a gut-level intuitive notion that this may have some strange connection to the fact that so many youtube performances are so obviously posted in violation of copyright.  Maybe not posting performers' information is some kind of way of not acknowledging this basic reality?  FWIW, the same seems to be true (both failure to identify performers as well as obvious copyright violations) of the otherwise very valuable site classical-music-online.net.  But just to reiterate, this may be pure fabrication on my part.

Brian
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ahinton
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« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2015, 07:01:32 am »

Full disclosure: I really have no idea what I'm talking about.  Having said that, I've always had some sort of a gut-level intuitive notion that this may have some strange connection to the fact that so many youtube performances are so obviously posted in violation of copyright.  Maybe not posting performers' information is some kind of way of not acknowledging this basic reality?  FWIW, the same seems to be true (both failure to identify performers as well as obvious copyright violations) of the otherwise very valuable site classical-music-online.net.  But just to reiterate, this may be pure fabrication on my part.
I agree with you and Dundonnell, but copyright violations are still well in evidence when the music performed is by a living composer or one who's not yet been dead for 70 years...
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Neil McGowan
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« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2015, 09:26:29 am »

I sometimes feel YouTube uploaders are not only entirely ignorant about performers, but are even unaware that there were ever any performers. To them, music is something that comes for free out of their computer.  The idea that professional performers trained for years to reach the necessary level to play or sing the piece - and then rehearsed for weeks to prepare the piece in question - is of utter irrelevance to them.

It's a pity that recordings cannot be encoded with this information 'welded in', so that it cannot be removed or chopped off by uploaders.
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ahinton
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« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2015, 01:56:20 pm »

I sometimes feel YouTube uploaders are not only entirely ignorant about performers, but are even unaware that there were ever any performers. To them, music is something that comes for free out of their computer.  The idea that professional performers trained for years to reach the necessary level to play or sing the piece - and then rehearsed for weeks to prepare the piece in question - is of utter irrelevance to them.

It's a pity that recordings cannot be encoded with this information 'welded in', so that it cannot be removed or chopped off by uploaders.
I could not agree more.

The self-same cavalier disregard for the composers (when they're living or still in copyright), even when they are at least credited on YouTube uploads, likewise illustrates the nub of the problem which is, as you rightly observe, in the widely held attitude that "the music is something that comes for free" from the user's computer but is also compounded (at least in my experience of having to deal with such things) by the view that this actually should be the case and that everyone has some kind of unwritten divine right to obtain their music for free, regardless of everything that's gone into its composition and performance.

On occasions when I have actually had to point out to transgressors the fallacious notion that this is, some continue in their intransigence but others actually stop and think and recognise that this is simply not only illegal but also immoral and profoundly inconsiderate; I've had people agree to take down such YouTube videos that they've uploaded once they do realise the consequences for those involved in enabling their existence in the first place. That one has actually to tell people this is, however, deeply dispiriting; it's very much a by-product of the computer age which is otherwise so marvellous in many ways.
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Dundonnell
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« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2015, 05:13:00 pm »

I take the points being made by both the previous posters.

I have always made it explicit that I only download music from YT if it is not available on cd. If it is on disc then I buy the cd........end of.

I am not prepared to pass by the opportunity to get, for example, the Wilfred Josephs Symphony No.4, if it is available via YT. If there was a charge for the download (as there is for Amazon for example) then I would happily pay that charge.

In the meantime as a token of personal goodwill I shall make a donation to......suggestions ??? Neil. Alistair.
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Neil McGowan
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« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2015, 06:43:20 pm »

In the meantime as a token of personal goodwill I shall make a donation to......suggestions ??? Neil. Alistair.

It's a generous and fair approach :)  I am not really sure it's obligatory... but if you're feeling Santa-hearted in the run-up to Crimbo, then almost every national and regional orchestra in Britain these days has an Education Program which brings kids into a more direct contact with live non-recorded music. I'm fairly sure that any donation, large or small, would be put to valuable use :)

[fair disclosure: I no longer have any active links with any kind of music education programs in the UK, so I don't stand to be any kind of beneficiary of the above
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Toby Esterhase
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« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2015, 11:51:53 pm »

IMHO this is a task for the people who uploads these pieces on YT.Surely (also for legal duties ) not for those that posts links here
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Dundonnell
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« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2015, 02:49:15 am »

IMHO this is a task for the people who uploads these pieces on YT.Surely (also for legal duties ) not for those that posts links here

I agree and that is what I was asking for. But any additional inforation about performers, offered on any entirely voluntary basis (not a task or obligation), would be welcomed.
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« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2015, 06:27:36 pm »

Certainly, there are instances when performer information is omitted for copyright reasons. However, I firmly believe that most omissions of performer data are due to ignorance, inexperience, or indifference on the part of the uploader. The same likely holds true in other instances when the performers are clearly identified but the music being performed is not.

In my experience, many people have no interest in these details. For instance, it may be very important to someone who is a friend or admirer or the performer(s) to identify them, but they often have no interest in what's being performed. For them it's more about the performance experience and/or their connection to the performers. Or... they may be interested in what's being performed but couldn't care less about who is performing.

Some of this mindset is also due to our pop culture, where popular music performers are promoted and the composers (in those instances when they're not the performers themselves) are completely ignored, and virtually unknown, unless in some instances they've established an unshakeable reputation.

Think about your last visit to an online music dealer who sells predominantly popular music. Even if they have a reasonably decent search engine, it's impossible to search on criteria we classical enthusiasts take for granted.

Think about your last visit to eBay, when trying to identify the contents of an intriguing CD with minimal information. Often, scrolling down the screen will result in a tracklist that consists of tempo indications, with no hint of the composer(s) or title(s) of the work(s) involved.

Makes me want to tear out what's left of my hair some days!
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Dundonnell
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« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2015, 07:11:52 pm »

So true :(
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