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The Gulag thread

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tapiola
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« on: November 13, 2013, 01:32:06 pm »

Virtually all 20th Century composers could be called "liberal" but not socialist.
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jimfin
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« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2013, 01:39:15 pm »

Maybe a post on those who were definitely not liberal would be better, then? Stanford was pretty right-wing, with some unpleasant views on the place of the "lower orders". And Elgar was decidedly a conservative and an opponent of home rule (something he shared with Stanford)
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Dundonnell
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« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2013, 02:41:03 pm »

Maybe a post on those who were definitely not liberal would be better, then? Stanford was pretty right-wing, with some unpleasant views on the place of the "lower orders". And Elgar was decidedly a conservative and an opponent of home rule (something he shared with Stanford)

Perhaps...but this would inevitably lead us into the dangerous waters to which I referred and which led to the closing of the Khrennikov thread, if you recall.
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tapiola
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« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2013, 05:04:12 pm »

I hate these threads.  My one addition, Mrs. Sibelius was very pro-Nazi.  He, however thought the Nazis "stupid".
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ahinton
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« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2013, 05:16:49 pm »

Maybe a post on those who were definitely not liberal would be better, then? Stanford was pretty right-wing, with some unpleasant views on the place of the "lower orders". And Elgar was decidedly a conservative and an opponent of home rule (something he shared with Stanford)

Stravinsky was a noted admirer of Mussolini, until moderating his views in the 1940s after moving to America. Wagner's political and social views are well known, I think, but Brahms was also quite the nationalist. Carl Ruggles appears to have been America's answer to Stanford (though a rather different kind of music). I've never read Sorabji's musings but I'm sure they contain some kind of political view, and I rather doubt it's a socialist one.

Conservatism is not that uncommon either, just less visible; approval for and glorification of those in power tends to stand out less than opposition to them.

Among composers whose music is strongly (and indubitably) influenced by their socialist views, some that come to mind include Eisler, Henze, Cardew, Blitzstein, Copland, Rzewski and Louis Andriessen.
I think that it is of importance in at least some cases to recognise that not all composer's expressions of political views are especially informative or even in certain cases especially well-informed, nor do they appear to accord with their holders' conduct; for example, Chopin, Wagner and Sorabji all appear to have evidenced some degree of anti-Semitism, yet all befriended Jews (most notably Alkan in Chopin's case and Yonty Solomon in Sorabji's). Michael Portillo, for example, has sought to ascribe Wagner's more extreme posturings as the products of political naïveté and, whilst he may be no expert on Wagner, has a point, I think, that is worth considering in the light of the kind of thing to which the sheer power of Wagner's expression as a whole might otherwise blind some of us.

Another aspect of this is whether and to what extent a composer's political views is apparent in his/her music and in any music that does not also involve words that's by no means an easy one to recognise, whatever the composer might have to say about it; however, that's not, of course, to suggest that music is likely to be entirely immune to the environment - social, political and otherwise - in which it is created.
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SerAmantiodiNicolao
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« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2013, 06:32:26 pm »

Here's a blatantly political one for you: George Hufsmith.  A pupil of Heitor Villa-Lobos, he served three terms in the Wyoming House of Representatives as a Republican.  He wrote some chamber music and an opera (The Sweetwater Lynching) of which I am aware, as well as a book on the lynching of Cattle Kate (the subject of the opera):

http://beta.worldcat.org/archivegrid/collection/data/854185630
http://villa-lobos.blogspot.com/2002/02/george-hufsmith.html

And Charles Gates Dawes, Calvin Coolidge's vice-president, was a published composer of violin pieces, one of which was later adapted into the popular song "It's All in the Game".  (Apparently he was a better composer than a vice-president, based on one particularly embarrassing incident involving the Senate.)

Francis Hopkinson of Philadelphia - member of the Continental Congress and early federal judge.  He was also a published writer of songs and piano pieces, and an all-around fascinating fellow.

Lastly, the contemporary composer Rick Sowash served as a county commissioner in Ohio from 1987 to 1990.

http://www.ohiomagazine.com/Main/Articles/3160.aspx
http://www.sowash.com/

Fascinating fellow - his music's tonal, easily accessible, and neo-Romantic.  I quite enjoy it.

I figure all of them had to have some political leanings, else they wouldn't have gotten into politics in the first place.  And that's all I'll say on the subject.  ;D
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kyjo
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« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2013, 07:53:27 pm »

I hate these threads.

Me too. I hate politics as well, especially when they are brought up when discussing totally unrelated topics such as music. I will not contribute to this thread.
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Dundonnell
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« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2013, 02:04:00 am »

Really ::)

Does any of this actually matter ???

Alistair put it pretty well in his post. A composer will not necessarily be immune to the political, social or economic context in which he lived and worked and it would be ridiculous to assert that Russian composers were not profoundly affected by their experiences of living through Stalinist repression or World War Two. There have already been interesting threads about the music composers wrote in response to that War. The choice of texts by composers to which to set music is also informative and of genuine importance.

But I am far less convinced of the merits of delving so deeply into the perceived individual political views of particular composers. In many cases these will just be perceptions. The political views may have little to no bearing on their music.....and, in any case, so what ???

I am not going to think any less of Gustav Holst to learn that he cycled round London distributing the "Socialist Worker". It is Holst's music that I love...not his politics.

Or am I supposed to think any less of a composer like Kurt Atterberg who appears to have been quite happy to have his music performed in Nazi Germany.

Frankly, I couldn't care. So....no more from me either.
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Neil McGowan
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« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2013, 02:46:53 am »

More disparagement on non-musical grounds :-|

"The Bin" is definitely the right place for this thread! :-)  And bin-riflers are welcome to contribute!
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autoharp
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« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2013, 07:02:58 pm »

Snobbed? (!)
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ahinton
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« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2013, 09:47:40 pm »

Snobbed? (!)
I'd noticed that myself but preferred to keep schtum. Anyway, yes, snubbed, presumably.

That said, I don't know that I've ever consciously leant on a composer as a consequence of his/her Socialism, if that's of any interest...
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markniew
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« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2013, 09:00:59 pm »

And what about the composers who were forced to support the socialist/communist ideology intheir works or who simply paid such a "tribute" to not be suppressed or to continue composing. Some of them, of course, might be real believers (at least during some period) but others never were. I mean mailnly composers from the East Block. In the UC forum I mentioned some time ago, for example, Panufnik's Symphony for Peace
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Jolly Roger
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« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2013, 10:45:38 pm »

And what about the composers who were forced to support the socialist/communist ideology intheir works or who simply paid such a "tribute" to not be suppressed or to continue composing. Some of them, of course, might be real believers (at least during some period) but others never were. I mean mailnly composers from the East Block. In the UC forum I mentioned some time ago, for example, Panufnik's Symphony for Peace

Yes, it seems like one of the benefits of a leftist regieme is the powerful music produced from the pain it has caused the people.
Many of these men are not only fine musicans, they are heros for a free society. Many emmigrated from their homeland to a place where they could freely express themselves.
I'm also convinced that the many socialist composers who lived in free societies would not have held extreme leftist views had they lived under the dictates of a repressive socialist government. It's quite fashionable to be a lefty when you live in a free society.
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autoharp
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« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2013, 12:56:52 am »

But hopefully we can keep this thread on-topic: the airing of members' own individual views is not relevant here.
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Jolly Roger
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« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2013, 02:57:07 am »

But hopefully we can keep this thread on-topic: the airing of members' own individual views is not relevant here.
Chopin, Wagner and Sorabji guilty of Antisemitism??..is no one immune from this label? The squirrels are loose here.
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