Sir Mark Elder CBE

[tapiola]

Can someone explain all the honors here?  Knighthood over Handley and Hickox. Am I missing something?
Can someone please explain to this stupid Yankee.
I just listened to his Bax "Spring Fire". Quite good.  Seems every CD he releases gets rave reviews.

[Neil McGowan]

Can someone explain all the honors here?  Knighthood over Handley and Hickox. Am I missing something?

Probably connected to the level and extent of service Elder's given to music-making in Britain?  I doubt
it is intended to imply he is a better or worse conductor than the other two.

He was the Music Director of English National Opera for ages - and during their most fruitful artistic period,
the so-called "powerhouse" era, when the theatre churned-out hit after hit like a conveyer-belt. (I happened
to work there over that period, and I know Elder personally - so I ought to mention that connection, by way
of "full disclosure").  He has done a great deal of work for Covent Garden, as well as around the world, and
recently Glyndebourne.  And, of course, his present appointment at the Halle.

Hickox - by comparison - was mainly a successful freelancer and guest conductor - he never had the responsibility of running
a major opera company, and the commitment of having to conduct a complete series of one production,
whilst simultaneously rehearsing a new one, and hiring/firing orchestral players and singers.  It's a different
kind of workload.  (Oddly enough, I have also worked with Hickox - but in an entirely different capacity!
He was still organist and choirmaster of St Margaret's, Westminster, when I sang there as a boy treble :) )

By a peculiar coincidence Elder is conducting Shostakovich 14 here in Moscow next month, with RNO - and
my wife is the soprano soloist.  RNO hired her for the gig without knowing that Elder was my former boss -
I had nothing to do with it :)

[Dundonnell]

I am copying an extremely lengthy( ;D ;D) post I placed elsewhere some time ago-


"(1)A number of British conductors have been knighted, ie they have been created Knights Bachelor(to use the correct technical
     description) and are therefore known as Sir.....     ........... Thus:

  Henry Wood, Adrian Boult, John Barbirolli, Malcolm Sargent, Eugene Goossens, Charles Groves, John Pritchard, Colin Davis, Alexander Gibson, David Willcocks, Andrew
  Davis, Simon Rattle, Roger Norrington, John Eliot Gardiner, Mark Elder, Richard Armstrong, Edward Downes, Reginald Goodall, Neville
  Marriner...of British conductors active over the last fifty years have received this honor and were or are therefore 'Sirs'.
  (Sometimes 'Kt' is put after their names but this is not necessary!)

In addition, two conductors who were not born British subjects but became naturalised subjects were knighted-Sir Andrej Panufnik and Sir George Solti. Solti's is a more complicated case, however, in that he was knighted before becoming a British subject but was able to use 'Sir' after he took British nationality. Solti, Dorati, Previn and Haitink(see below) were created, not Knights Bachelor, but Knight Commanders of the British Empire. After their names, therefore, goes K.B.E. (not Kt.).

A small number of foreign conductors have been made Honorary Knights but are not entitled to call thmselves 'Sir' because its is an honorary title-thus, Antal Dorati(naturalised American), Andre Previn(American), Bernard Haitink(Dutch).

Sir Charles Mackerras was an Australian citizen but was 'Sir Charles' because the Queen of the United Kingdom is also Queen of Australia and Australian citizens are therefore eligible for knighthoods(although the Australian government has stopped recommending anyone for the title!).

Sir Thomas Beecham can be added to the list-he was knighted in early 1916-but later the same year he inherited a hereditary Baronetcy from his father. He is therefore known as Sir Thomas Beecham, Bt. Baronetcies are hereditary knighthoods. Only one new Baronet has been created since 1964; Margaret Thatcher recommended her husband, Denis, for that honour(which is why her son is now Sir Mark Thatcher, Bt.).

(2) A few, very distinguished conductors have also been created Companions of Honour and have the letters C.H. after their name.
     Those conductors were Beecham, Boult, Barbirolli, Mackerras, Colin Davis. Haitink is an honorary C.H.

(3) The Order of the British Empire has a number of different classes(G.B.E.-Knight Grand Cross, K.B.E.-Knight Commander, C.B.E.-Commander, O.B.E.-Officer, and M.B.E.-Member). A much larger number of conductors(and of course other musicians) have been awarded one of the lesser classes.
I cannot possibly list all of these and it is certainly the case that many of those conductors who were later knighted had earlier been granted, for example, a C.B.E.(which does not carry a 'Sir' with it!). Thus Norman Del Mar, Vernon Handley, Richard Hickox were C.B.E.s, Jeffrey Tate and Paul Daniel have C.B.E.s, David Atherton an O.B.E.

I know full well that this is all extremely complicated  The British Honours system is arcane to say the very least  There is, however, no quick and easy way to explain things properly!

[Dundonnell]

And, as a supplement:

Lord Britten, O.M., C.H.(Companion of Honour, 1957, Order of Merit, 1965, Life Peerage, 1976)
Lord Berkeley of Knighton, C.B.E.(Michael Berkeley) (Life Peerage, 2013)

Sir Edward Elgar, Bt., O.M., G.C.V.O.(Knight Bachelor 1911, Order of Merit, 1911, Baronet, 1931, Knight Grand Cross of the Royal
     Victorian Order, 1933)
Ralph Vaughan Williams, O.M.(1935)
Sir William Walton, O.M.(Knight Bachelor, 1951, Order of Merit, 1968)
Sir Michael Tippett, O.M., C.H., C.B.E,(Knight Bachelor, 1966, Companion of Honour, 1979, Order of Merit, 1983)
    (the Order of Merit is restricted to a maximum of 24 persons at any time and is regarded as the most prestigious honour of its kind)

Sir Hubert Parry, Bt., C.V.O.(Knight Bachelor, 1898, Baronet, 1902)

Frederick Delius, C.H.(Companion of Honour, 1929)
Sir Arthur Bliss, C.H., K.C.V.O.(Knight Bachelor, 1950, Knight Commander of the Royal Victorian Order, 1969, Companion of Honour, 1971)
Herbert Howells, C.H.(Companion of Honour, 1972)
Sir Harrison Birtwistle, C.H.(Knight Bachelor, 1988, Companion of Honour, 2000)

Sir Alexander Mackenzie, K.C.V.O.(Knight Bachelor, 1895, Knight Commander of the Royal Victorian Order, 1922)
Sir Henry Walford Davies, K.C.V.O., O.B.E.(Knight Bachelor, 1922, Knight Commander of the Royal Victorian Order, 1937)
Sir Arnold Bax, K.C.V.O.(Knight Bachelor, 1937, Knight Commander of the Royal Victorian Order, 1953)
Sir George Dyson, K.C.V.O.(Knight Bachelor, 1941, Knight Commander of the Royal Victorian Order, 1953)

Dame Ethel Smyth, D.B.E.(Dame of the British Empire, 1922)
Dame Elizabeth Maconchy, D.B.E.(Dame of the British Empire, 1987)

Sir Charles Villiers Stanford(Knight Bachelor, 1902)
Sir Frederic Cowen(Knight Bachelor, 1911)
Sir Hamilton Harty(Knight Bachelor, 1925)-also conductor
Sir Edward German(Knight Bachelor, 1928)
Sir Arthur Somervell(Knight Bachelor, 1929)
Sir Granville Bantock(Knight Bachelor, 1930)
Sir John McEwen(Knight Bachelor, 1931)
Sir Donald Tovey(Knight Bachelor, 1935)
Sir Lennox Berkeley, C.B.E.(Knight Bachelor, 1974)
Sir Peter Maxwell Davies, C.B.E.(Knight Bachelor, 1987)
Sir Andrzej Panufnik(Knight Bachelor, 1991)-also conductor
Sir Malcolm Arnold, C.B.E.(Knight Bachelor, 1993)
Sir Richard Rodney Bennett, C.B.E.(Knight Bachelor, 1998)
Sir John Tavener(Knight Bachelor, 2000)

Gordon Jacob, C.B.E.
Edmund Rubbra, C.B.E.
William Alwyn, C.B.E.
Alan Rawsthorne, C.B.E.
Elizabeth Lutyens, C.B.E.
Humphrey Searle, C.B.E.
Robin Orr, C.B.E.
Alun Hoddinott, C.B.E.
William Mathias, C.B.E.
John McCabe, C.B.E.
John Linton Gardner, C.B.E.
Oliver Knussen, C.B.E.
Michael Nyman, C.B.E.
James Macmillan, C.B.E.
Thea Musgrave, C.B.E.

Daniel Jones, O.B.E.
George Lloyd, O.B.E.
Colin Matthews, O.B.E.

Interesting to see the ratings the British Establishment has given to composers over the years :) A couple of caveats however-firstly, some of these composers were honoured for services to Musical Education rather than for composition, and secondly, a number of composers are known to have refused honours-Vaughan Williams refused a knighthood while George Lloyd and Robert Simpson refused C.B.E.s.

Apart from Simpson, who else are missing? Richard Arnell, Havergal Brian, Alan Bush, Arnold Cooke, Benjamin Frankel, Peter Racine Fricker, John Ireland, Kenneth Leighton, E.J. Moeran, Cyril Scott.

[Dundonnell]

Two quick points before I forget:

1. The focus of these lists is on the 20th century. There were many 19th century musicians who received honours(Sir Arthur Sullivan being an obvious example!)

2. Before anyone says "Does any of this matter? It is all meaningless!", that is of course a perfectly valid opinion ;D

[ahinton]

Interesting to see the ratings the British Establishment has given to composers over the years :) A couple of caveats however-firstly, some of these composers were honoured for services to Musical Education rather than for composition, and secondly, a number of composers are known to have refused honours-Vaughan Williams refused a knighthood while George Lloyd and Robert Simpson refused C.B.E.s.

Apart from Simpson, who else are missing? Richard Arnell, Havergal Brian, Alan Bush, Arnold Cooke, Benjamin Frankel, Peter Racine Fricker, John Ireland, Kenneth Leighton, E.J. Moeran, Cyril Scott, Humphrey Searle.

Well, I don't know if it's true but I had heard that Alan Bush once refused some honour or other. Who's missing? Well, plenty of people, I suppose. Those not mentioned above who have received such honours and are still with us include Thea Musgrave and Colin Matthews, respectively CBE ad OBE (though why only an OBE for the latter I have no idea); those omitted from the above list who are no longer alive but who received honours include my own teacher Humphrey Searle, CBE. Those still with us upon whom no such honour has yet been conferred might start with Ronald Stevenson and Anthony Payne.

[tapiola]

Sorry, but no Vernon Handley is a complete joke.

[Neil McGowan]

Sorry, but no Vernon Handley is a complete joke.

I agree it was poor that Tod Handley never received any official recognition.

He never headed a major British orchestra, despite all his recordings of obscure British music. These awards are often more for public service than for artistic achievement, and that might have been the reason?

On the other hand, other fine conductors - like Lionel Friend - never saw even a glimmer of public recognition either. Sometimes the British establishment (the Old Boys of Eton & Harrow Schools, primarily) closes ranks against a figure they dislike.  For example the playwright Harold Pinter was recognised internationally, and awarded the Nobel Prize. But in his own country the establishment despised him, and he was never offered anything officially. Non-State organisations - like the Society of West End Theatre, which awards the BAFTAs - recognised his work, and he was pleased to accept.

On a more general note, I am not sure that the idea it was an "either/or choice" between Elder and Handley is a correct assumption. Fine conductors both!  And both deserve(d) recognition.

[Elder is not, perhaps, the 'mainstream' figure that might be imagined. For example, during the Falklands War he turned down conducting the Last Night Of The Proms, saying that he was uneasy about the nationalist flag-waving fervour in time of war.  He was replaced.  He eventually conducted a LNOTP some years later - but the Beeb was always wary of him thereafter. "Not one of our chaps". I'm sure his file at the Beeb has a Christmas Tree on it.]

[ahinton]

On the other hand, other fine conductors - like Lionel Friend - never saw even a glimmer of public recognition either.

What I mistakenly took with horror as implying finality in your reference to Lionel Friend prompted me to rush to reassure myself that he is still very much with us!

[Dundonnell]

I have added Thea Musgrave, Colin Matthews and Humphrey Searle :) (Astonishing that I had thought that Searle got nothing ::))

(It is not actually true that Harold Pinter got nothing. He turned down a knighthood but became a Companion of Honour in 2002.)

[Neil McGowan]

What I mistakenly took with horror as implying finality in your reference to Lionel Friend prompted me to rush to reassure myself that he is still very much with us!

Yes, and I'm glad to hear it too :))  A fine conductor and musician - long may he continue to thrive :)

[kyjo]

Elder's Elgar recordings got rave reviews, but I wasn't too impressed with them. He can't hold a candle to Boult, Andrew Davis etc.

[jimfin]

I imagine Hickox would have been in line for a knighthood had he lived longer. Why has Richard Bonynge not been? He's been around long enough, and his wife was a Dame (the female equivalent). Is it the policy of the Abbott government to deprive its citizens of recognition?

[jimfin]

I also find it amusing that Vaughan Williams turned down a knighthood, whereas Tippett, the former communist and Bax the republican sympathiser accepted them, Bax also going on to accept the post of Master of the King's Music.

[guest54]

. . . Why has Richard Bonynge not been? He's been around long enough, and his wife was a Dame (the female equivalent). Is it the policy of the Abbott government to deprive its citizens of recognition?

I don't think they do knights these days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders,_decorations,_and_medals_of_Australia

A pity. Something to do with the British position on butter in the nineteen-seventies.