The Art-Music, Literature and Linguistics Forum
March 29, 2024, 02:24:19 am
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Here you may discover hundreds of little-known composers, hear thousands of long-forgotten compositions, contribute your own rare recordings, and discuss the Arts, Literature and Linguistics in an erudite and decorous atmosphere full of freedom and delight.
 
  Home Help Search Gallery Staff List Login Register  

The pleasure principle in art

Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: The pleasure principle in art  (Read 417 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Neil McGowan
Level 7
*******

Times thanked: 79
Offline Offline

Posts: 1336



View Profile
« on: January 12, 2012, 10:27:50 pm »

Some very wise words from Jonathan Jones in the Guardian - meditating on remarks of one Mr Grew's favourites - Pater.
Report Spam   Logged

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter

guest54
Guest
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2012, 06:59:03 am »

Your man Jones has got Pater wrong I fear. "Art that feels like a duty is probably bad art," says Mr. Jones. This is the lazy school-boy justifying his reluctance to learn.

"Modern equivalents of pompous and moralising Victorian paintings," continues Mr. Jones. Wrong again I fear: pomposity is GOOD, Victorian is GOOD. We advise Mr. Jones to sit down and have a little think and stop being so lazy.

Pater: "The ęsthetic critic regards all the objects with which he has to do, all works of Art, and the fairer forms of Nature and human life, as powers or forces producing pleasurable sensations, each of a more or less peculiar or unique kind. This influence he feels, and wishes to explain, by analysing and reducing it to its elements."

But Jones's most serious and ridiculous deviation comes when he cites some Northern American "populistic" guitarist as an example of High Art. Evidently he is one of that now widespread British sub-class whose school provided no lessons in the history of music.

An artist in the field of music is some one such as Sibelius, Brahms or Bach who will spend years refining and honing a single work until a) there remains nothing superfluous and b) every element is developed to its most extreme point possible (Pater's "hard gem-like flame" what).

Or take our own Mr. H, even, who has the makings of a great man, and who laboured for seven years on his quintette - with the most admirable results.

More Pater: "Of this wisdom, the poetic passion, the desire of beauty, the love of Art for Art's sake has most; for Art comes to you professing frankly to give nothing but the highest quality to your moments as they pass, and simply for those moments' sake."

The antics of the Mr. Dylan cited in the article have no more relation to High Art than do those of the authors of Ta-ra-ra Boom-de-ay in an earlier era. Thus as I say Mr. Jones lets himself absurdly down.
Report Spam   Logged
Neil McGowan
Level 7
*******

Times thanked: 79
Offline Offline

Posts: 1336



View Profile
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2012, 08:55:28 am »

A deep bow to your greater knowledge of Pater, Mr G :)

I don't endorse Mr Jones's piece wholeheartedly - in his eagerness to be liked and understood, his choice of Dylan as an example is rather weak.  Although I think he might have made the same point rather better with the choice of an alternative example.

I do feel that his point stands, regardless of the weakness of the expression - "moral improvement" and "admiration of technique" aren't - for me - sufficient justifications for the pursuit of art.  There must - surely? - be some great element of enjoyment and satisfaction... to make the game worth the candle? 
Report Spam   Logged
ahinton
Level 6
******

Times thanked: 30
Offline Offline

Posts: 837


View Profile WWW
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2012, 06:20:11 pm »

An artist in the field of music is some one such as Sibelius, Brahms or Bach who will spend years refining and honing a single work until a) there remains nothing superfluous and b) every element is developed to its most extreme point possible
Sibelius, yes, Brahms occasionally - but when did Bach afford himself that luxury? writing as much as he did as well as all his other duties and raising two score children must surely have afforded him very little time to do sch a thing!

Or take our own Mr. H, even, who has the makings of a great man, and who laboured for seven years on his quintette - with the most admirable results.
If you mean me, you are surely too kind! Whilst I very much appreciate your appreciation, so to speak, I ought perhaps to put the record straight to the extent that I laboured on my string quintet for little more than a year all told, its first four movements taking a few months and its finale probably about another nine altogether, the lengthy hiatus in between consisting primarily of perplexed and doubt-ridden pencil-chewing accompanied by the overbearing fear that I simply wan't capable of that finale until I finally felt that I'd possibly become so and then took the plunge.
Report Spam   Logged
Neil McGowan
Level 7
*******

Times thanked: 79
Offline Offline

Posts: 1336



View Profile
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2012, 07:00:47 pm »

and raising two score children mus

He even brought his children into the world in full orchestral score?  What a pro he was, eh?
Report Spam   Logged
ahinton
Level 6
******

Times thanked: 30
Offline Offline

Posts: 837


View Profile WWW
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2012, 07:25:09 pm »

and raising two score children mus

He even brought his children into the world in full orchestral score?  What a pro he was, eh?
Probably, yes! Rather as I have heard it observed that Segerstam must compose symphonies with one hand while conducting rehearsals with the other...

Point taken and typo duly corrected, by the way; thanks!
Report Spam   Logged
t-p
Guest
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2012, 08:37:53 pm »

For me pleasure in Art is very important. A lot of the time it seems now Art is duty.
They used to say that Art is between one person and the world. Now in many cases Art makes it harder to take life. 
Artists are concentrating on ugly and negative. There is no uplifting ideas coming from the art. Often I feel that to listen and to watch at contemporary artists is a duty.

Report Spam   Logged
ahinton
Level 6
******

Times thanked: 30
Offline Offline

Posts: 837


View Profile WWW
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2012, 10:13:34 pm »

For me pleasure in Art is very important. A lot of the time it seems now Art is duty.
They used to say that Art is between one person and the world. Now in many cases Art makes it harder to take life. 
Artists are concentrating on ugly and negative. There is no uplifting ideas coming from the art. Often I feel that to listen and to watch at contemporary artists is a duty.
I sek to make absolutely no claims for what I do, but it's no mere "duty" for me!
Report Spam   Logged
guest54
Guest
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2012, 05:43:00 am »

. . . when did Bach afford himself that luxury? writing as much as he did as well as all his other duties and raising two score children must surely have afforded him very little time to do such a thing!

Ah but was it not Bach's habit to tinker with his existing compositions? He would come back to them again and again and again, often many years later, always introducing some improvement or refinement. I suppose I am thinking of the Passions in particular here.

On the more general point of this thread, an effect that has often been remarked upon is that the more effort one is obliged to put into getting to know a piece of music the greater one's eventual pleasure. If some modernistic work requires many hearings before one achieves any sort of familiarity, then the "pay-off" - the pleasure one eventually gains from it - will often be all the greater.

Of course there are some things - those of the pseudo-composer Stockhausen for instance - which sadly never provide that "pay-off" no matter how many times one hears them, and one can therefore only conclude the man to have been a charlatan.

And in a larger sphere, that of education in general, we might recall a number of maxims, such as: "no pains no gains," "no joy without annoy," and "pleasure is not pleasant unless it cost dear." Mr. Jones does not appear to have had that experience though.
Report Spam   Logged

Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal
Bookmark this site! | Upgrade This Forum
SMF For Free - Create your own Forum


Powered by SMF | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines
Privacy Policy