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the dark side of YT "grandness"


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Author Topic: the dark side of YT "grandness"  (Read 1527 times)
ahinton
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« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2013, 10:59:25 am »

I suspect this may be an unpopular view around here, but i believe that the already-flawed concept of "intellectual property" should not be appropriated by agencies other than the creator for profit.

Does it bother you that the performers of these works are left unpaid for the use you've had?
I do not seek to speak for dyn, but it would seem clear from his stance on what he regards as an 'already-flawed concept of "intellectual property"' that it does nothing of the kind; if I have misunderstood this, perhaps dyn will say so and explain how and why.
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dyn
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« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2013, 11:23:19 am »

I suspect this may be an unpopular view around here, but i believe that the already-flawed concept of "intellectual property" should not be appropriated by agencies other than the creator for profit.

Does it bother you that the performers of these works are left unpaid for the use you've had?

It bothers me more that the performer receives almost none of the money even when i do pay for the use as it were. For a given CD or download which is sold for $10 for instance, and costs almost nothing to reproduce, it seems there is no reason the distributor/publisher/etc should get more than one or two dollars while the rest goes to the people who actually created the music represented (composer and performer). In reality the situation is almost the exact opposite of that, except that ten percent would be a very generous artist's share and a more usual amount would be a fraction of one percent.

Conversely, if performers undertook their own recording projects rather than entrusting them to labels, dividing the profits among themselves, the composers (where necessary) and the sound engineers, there would be more recorded music (since it would no longer be such a risk to devote a period of time to learning and recording a composition, as the time and money invested could be repaid with a few hundred sales instead of tens of thousands), distributed through channels that already exist or could easily be created, and both creators and audiences would gain. The only people who would lose out would be the people who control the current record market and methods of distribution, who are in large part the people whom copyright law was created to protect artists from. I don't think the world would miss them much if they disappeared.

I suppose i'm young so i can afford not to believe in perpetuating broken systems just because they're "the best we have", maybe age & maturity will make me a cynic like Mr Hinton
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« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2013, 11:31:58 am »

distributed through channels that already exist or could easily be created

Do tell us more, pray?
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« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2013, 12:41:36 pm »

I do not seek to speak for dyn, but it would seem clear from his stance . . .
Just by the way and apropos of nothing in particular, Mr. H., she's a she it should be said.
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ahinton
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« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2013, 12:47:44 pm »

I suspect this may be an unpopular view around here, but i believe that the already-flawed concept of "intellectual property" should not be appropriated by agencies other than the creator for profit.

Does it bother you that the performers of these works are left unpaid for the use you've had?

It bothers me more that the performer receives almost none of the money even when i do pay for the use as it were. For a given CD or download which is sold for $10 for instance, and costs almost nothing to reproduce, it seems there is no reason the distributor/publisher/etc should get more than one or two dollars while the rest goes to the people who actually created the music represented (composer and performer). In reality the situation is almost the exact opposite of that, except that ten percent would be a very generous artist's share and a more usual amount would be a fraction of one percent.

Conversely, if performers undertook their own recording projects rather than entrusting them to labels, dividing the profits among themselves, the composers (where necessary) and the sound engineers, there would be more recorded music (since it would no longer be such a risk to devote a period of time to learning and recording a composition, as the time and money invested could be repaid with a few hundred sales instead of tens of thousands), distributed through channels that already exist or could easily be created, and both creators and audiences would gain. The only people who would lose out would be the people who control the current record market and methods of distribution, who are in large part the people whom copyright law was created to protect artists from. I don't think the world would miss them much if they disappeared.

I suppose i'm young so i can afford not to believe in perpetuating broken systems just because they're "the best we have", maybe age & maturity will make me a cynic like Mr Hinton
Even assuming that age will indeed bring maturity with it in your case, I still doubt that very much, not least because I am a practical realist rather than a cynic. When a record label makes a recording, it has to fund the artist/s, venue hire, occasionally instrument hire (in the case of pianos), production / transportation / administrative / equipment costs and, once the recording is edited and made, it has to fund manufacture and production costs including liner notes, artwork and the like; the distributors to which that company supplies the finished product (again, at its expense) takes a cut out of the amount that it pays to the company to purchase the stock and the retailers take another, so the record company may end up with less than half of the retail price of each unit sold by the retailers. Add to that the fact that royalties are payable on any recorded music that's in copyright and factor in all the above costs and it will be clear that the record company will in many cases see very little of its investment back unless the music and/or its performers and/or its composers are superstars that can generate sales running into tens of thousands.

In cases where artists and composers collaborate to make recordings rather than entrusting them to record companies, few shortcuts are likely to be possible and most of the above costs will still have to be met. If such recordings are made and supplied as download only, many of the middleman costs might well be removed from the equation but most of the costs of making the recording will remain broadly the same. Not only that, it by no means falls to all such people to have the ability to do all of this kind of work as a good record company can, so the product quality might be compromised.

That said, you were earlier referring specifically to what you believe to be a "broken" system governing intellectual property. Whilst laws on this certainly still differ from one country to the next, there has been a good deal of harmonisation of copyright terms over recent years and the current situation is less confusing than once it was.

There are those who consider that technological developments have alone reduced the entire concept of intellectual property to redundant anachronism, as though the fact that recorded and sheet music can be transmitted electronically with such comparative ease today itself means that those who produce it no loner merit being paid for their work; quite how such people nevertheless manage to assume that such work can and will continue to be done in such a climate is unclear to me. The notion of producing muscial art purely for the love of so doing is a specious argument on the basis of which some thieves seek to justify their zillions of copyright breaches; that is not a cynical view but a bald statement of fact supported by personal experience.
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ahinton
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« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2013, 12:48:45 pm »

I do not seek to speak for dyn, but it would seem clear from his stance . . .
Just by the way and apropos of nothing in particular, Mr. H., she's a she it should be said.
Then I beg her pardon for this error and extend my thanks to you for drawing my attention to it!
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ahinton
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« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2013, 10:09:15 am »

I was hoping this thread was dead.it has served no useful purpose.it started with the leftist "Guardian" and should end there..
It's taken you quite a few weeks to bump it and, given with what words you've done so, it's hard to see why you have! Mr Zimerman behaved as he did and others behave similarly or do nothing about it when people who think that they have a divine right to anything and everything without having either to pay for it or to request the permission of those involved go recording live concerts, uploading copyright material to YouTube and many other places and the rest of it. If you think tht this is OK, then so be it, but presumably you are neither a composer nor a performer nor a record company owner. I am not a "leftist" but I have to make a living like everyone else and that's not helped by thieves. Your remark seems to have little if any substance beyond that of your personal view of the British newspapaer in which this event was reported; had the Zimerman case been an entrely isolated and exceptional instance, your statement above might attract some credence but, in reality, this kind of thing is very widespared indeed and many people are adversely affected by it.

Gerard's earlier comment about artists (be they composers or performers or both) not needing to be involved in "selling" their work is all very well, but someone has to sell it and someone has to pay for it otherwise those artists will receive no income and therefore be unable to do any work; in reality, the situation is no so very different from the taxi driver whose income is removed from him because someone's stolen his cab (at least until his/her insurance stumps up).
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« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2013, 06:27:55 pm »

Youtube and other sites which permit (or actively condone by their inaction) the upload of clearly-copyright audio and/ or video recordings by members of the public are a disgraceful symptom of our 'get it for nothing' culture - I include Spotify in this, by the way. It is inconceivable that of the hundreds, thousands or millions of people who listen to a recording on these formats, a large proportion pay for the actual properly-licensed product. The argument that these are lo-fi files and therefore anybody really interested in the music will then go on to purchase said product is a load of bunkum - most listeners will listen, download or record these 'free' files and leave it at that. No wonder the recording industry is on its knees.

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« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2013, 11:48:51 am »

. . . it is the Socialist Welfare State mentality of unmerited rewards which dominates our cultures today..hopefully it will soon pass.
This has prompted me to start a thread in support of Socialism and all the fine composers with Socialist views, of whom there have been many thousands!
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ahinton
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« Reply #39 on: November 13, 2013, 12:21:53 pm »

Youtube and other sites which permit (or actively condone by their inaction) the upload of clearly-copyright audio and/ or video recordings by members of the public are a disgraceful symptom of our 'get it for nothing' culture - I include Spotify in this, by the way. It is inconceivable that of the hundreds, thousands or millions of people who listen to a recording on these formats, a large proportion pay for the actual properly-licensed product. The argument that these are lo-fi files and therefore anybody really interested in the music will then go on to purchase said product is a load of bunkum - most listeners will listen, download or record these 'free' files and leave it at that. No wonder the recording industry is on its knees.

 Shocked Roll Eyes
I agree completely, it is the Socialist Welfare State mentality of unmerited rewards which dominates our cultures today..hopefull it will soon pass.
What is? Sorry, I don't quite understand to whose unmerited rewards you refer here. I have personally had removed from YouTube hundreds of files, mainly of complete CDs of copyright material, that had been uploaded there years earlier and I do know for a fact that the effect of their long-term presence on sales of the real thing had been adverse.
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« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2013, 12:55:21 pm »

As I have remarked on a previous occasion, Simon Perry of Hyperion recently told a friend of mine in discussion of a possible future recording project that YT was killing his company Sad
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