Are there any 'Great Composers' left?

[Dundonnell]

The deaths, within a very short of each other, of Hans Werner Henze and Elliott Carter led me to think- "Has there ever, in musical history over the last 200-300 years been a time when it seems very hard to identify any composers who really stand out as "Great", as "Giants" worthy to share that accolade with the Purcell, Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Sibelius, Bruckner, Mahler, Richard Strauss, Elgar, Vaughan Williams, Janacek, Rachmaninov, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Bartok, Schoenberg, Shostakovich, Britten, Messiaen, Lutoslawski, Ives, Copland etc, etc.

And-frankly-looking around the world I really cannot think of a time when there so few obvious composers of genius :(

I am not qualifed to describe Boulez or Birtwistle as "great composers". I would not class them as such.....though others might ;D

There are a number of very fine composers-Dutilleux in France is still alive (at the age of 96), in Britain we have a composer like Peter Maxwell Davies and a number of others whose music is certainly music of distinction....but "great", I doubt it.

The Finns have Rautavaara, Sallinen and Aho-all three symphonists of distinction- but none of them a composer in the class of a Sibelius.

In America ??? John Adams, Philip Glass, John Corigliano, Christopher Rouse........fine composers maybe but not in the same league as Ives, Copland, Barber, Piston, Schuman, Carter.

With the deaths of Shostakovich and, more recently, Boris Tishchenko are there any "great" Russian composers left ??? ???

Penderecki ??? A composer of genuine substance but many would challenge any claim even to that ::)

Are we going to have to settle in the future for music of quality but not undoubted genius ??? ???

[guest224]

The deaths, within a very short of each other, of Hans Werner Henze and Elliott Carter led me to think- "Has there ever, in musical history over the last 200-300 years been a time when it seems very hard to identify any composers who really stand out as "Great", as "Giants" worthy to share that accolade with the Purcell, Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Sibelius, Bruckner, Mahler, Richard Strauss, Elgar, Vaughan Williams, Janacek, Rachmaninov, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Bartok, Schoenberg, Shostakovich, Britten, Messiaen, Lutoslawski, Ives, Copland etc, etc.

I think a related question would be - which of the above-named were regarded in their life-times as "Greats", as opposed to being discovered after their deaths.  Furthermore, discovery and widespread acceptance of "great" must have been very slow things in the absence of radio, tv, internet etc.  I understand that J.S.Bach was overlooked in favour of other Bachs for quite some time - is this true?  Others were regarded as great at the time but have since fallen in stature and reputation (Hummel? Raff? etc...).

[Dundonnell]

That is a perfectly fair point with respect at least of the 18th century. Is it equally true of the 19th and 20th centuries ???

[kyjo]

I believe the problem is that, with so many precedents before them, contemporary composers, as well as future composers, have trouble being original. Although this is not always a bad thing, when you realize the fact that all the "greats" presented original, unique-to-them qualities in their music, it is, sadly, rather unlikely that there will be any, if any, truly "great" composers in the future :(. Sure, their will be plenty of composers who write enjoyable music that I appreciate, but it will take a true master to be able to come up with original ideas that have not already been exploited by the "greats". Just my two cents worth :).

[tapiola]

Is it fair to compare Finnish composers as being not as great as Sibelius? No German composer compares to  Beethoven.
No British composer compares to (Elgar, Vughan Williams, Bax pick one).
As Rautavaara, Sallinen and Aho are still alive and composing I believe they are all "great" composers in comparison to their European contemporaries.
In Britain, I consider John McCabe and David Matthews as "great"..NOT Maxwell Davies, however.
America unfortunately, compared to Britain and Finland is a wasteland of mediocrity. The only "great" composer still living in America is Harold Shapero.
There's not much else I would call "great" out there. Our societies are becoming too dumbed-down.
Finland alone insists on music in their cirriculum (sp.?) and it shows. Many composers in their 30s 40s and 50s are of high quality but not "great", yet.
Just my humble opinion.

[kyjo]

Agree with you, Tapiola, especially about the "dumbing-down" of society-the fact that there are not enough "great composers" living today is a direct by-product of this unfortunate and maddening change in society :( >:(. Let us follow Finland's example and stop being a society that be so much better but doesn't strive to (I'm referring mainly to the US)!

[Dundonnell]

Is it fair to compare Finnish composers as being not as great as Sibelius? No German composer compares to  Beethoven.
No British composer compares to (Elgar, Vughan Williams, Bax pick one).
As Rautavaara, Sallinen and Aho are still alive and composing I believe they are all "great" composers in comparison to their European contemporaries.
In Britain, I consider John McCabe and David Matthews as "great"..NOT Maxwell Davies, however.
America unfortunately, compared to Britain and Finland is a wasteland of mediocrity. The only "great" composer still living in America is Harold Shapero.
There's not much else I would call "great" out there. Our societies are becoming too dumbed-down.
Finland alone insists on music in their cirriculum (sp.?) and it shows. Many composers in their 30s 40s and 50s are of high quality but not "great", yet.
Just my humble opinion.

You make my point for me :)

The composers of today cannot compare with the great masters of even the last 100 years :( Who-today-can match Mahler, Sibelius, Nielsen, Shostakovich, Vaughan Williams as symphonists ??? ???

Finland is indeed the country with some of the most impressive contemporary composers but even Aho is now past 60 years of age. The three I named-Rautavaara, Sallinen and Aho certainly outshine many if not virtually all of their contemporaries. Are they "great composers" ??? ??? Very, very good certainly ;D

[shamus]

Thanks for this interesting thread. Indeed it is hard to think of who among the present generation of composers can aspire to the title of greatness. To me that would mean not only that someone creates beautiful cogent sound experiences, but does so consistently (and uses real musical instruments, ol' fuddy duddy must insert). That is why it is also somewhat difficult to come up with any real "duds" by Beethoven and the rest so far mentioned, of course, "dud" always being in the ear of the behearer (neologism!). For me Henze (RIP) and later Penderecki would probably be on the list, but I am also enthralled with the music of Timo Andres, Nico Muhly, Lera Auerbach, Elena Kats-Chernin, thinking the are close to "great" already. Anyway, I am reading a book about Hector Berlioz and his passionate and sad relationship with Harriet Smithson, so I put "Romeo and Juliette" on and still got the same goosebumps I got 40 years ago when I first heard it, and some might say the jury is still out on Berlioz, but not in my opinion. (By the way the book is "Symphony" by Jude Morgan). Well, enough of a ramble, Cheers, Jim

[Neil McGowan]

I understand that J.S.Bach was overlooked in favour of other Bachs for quite some time - is this true? 

J.S.Bach was not recognised as great in his own lifetime. In fact he spent his entire career being sidelined - he applied for better jobs (for example as Kapellmeister to the Margrave of Brandenburg) but was never considered for them.  The 'great' composers of the period - as acclaimed by the public of the era - were Hasse, Landi, Scarlatti, Graun, and Porpora.  Not even Handel was in the ratings, to judge by the schedules of performances even at his own opera-house, the King's Theatre, Haymarket.  Even in the period before the split with Senesino, Handel is consistently out-performed (by number of performances) by Porpora, Landi and Bononcini.  Except for a few performances in Hamburg, Handel's works were barely performed elsewhere. Towards the end of his life Handel was derided even in London. It was only in the C19th, with its attendant religiosity, that massed performances of his oratorios (but never his operas, which went unplayed, and were not even in print) became popular.

That is a perfectly fair point with respect at least of the 18th century. Is it equally true of the 19th and 20th centuries

I would say that it is :)  Today we have a very selective view of C19th composers.  In the C19th itself, the popular (ie frequently performed) composers were Gounod, Meyerbeer, Verdi, Halevy, Bizet and their like.  Only Verdi retains that popularity today, the others have all drifted onto the sidelines, or even into utter obscurity (viz Halevy).  In Britain, of course, the oratorio pot-boilers like Stainer & Parry were popular - and these, too, have faded from view.

Some would say that like the Fish John West Rejected, we've ended with the best, by a peculiar process of filtration. Certainly as far as the C18th opera composers I think we've got the rough end of the deal - Porpora's operas are at least as good as Handel's (with no disrepect to GFH, whom I greatly admire).

Frankly I am very satisfied to have lived to hear composers like Messiaen, PMD, Birtwistle, and Desyatnikov.  I hope these composers will get a fair appraisal by later generations.

[Dundonnell]

Obviously, what has been said about the differences between the contemporary evaluations of composers and their current reputations is perfectly true. History may well judge certain living composers as "greater" than their present standing may suggest.

I do think however that from the late 19th century onwards there may have been a general consensus that there were a number of "great" living composers. I certainly was in no doubt as a boy in the 1950s that there were a whole host of "towering figures" alive who appeared to be generally reckoned to be "great composers"-Sibelius(although he had composed nothing for 20 years), Vaughan Williams, Benjamin Britten, Stravinsky, Shostakovich, Copland and a number of other well-known names were universally agreed to be "giants". I see little signs of any such consensus today :(

It may be that in 50 years some composers actively at work in 2012 will be agreed to be "great"......but I wonder ???

[Neil McGowan]

You make a fair point, Mr D :)

In response to it, I think there are several things to say (and I hope others may wish to add to them?!).

Firstly, the economic basis for music-making has changed fundamentally, and perhaps permanently. The 'symphony orchestra' as we know it today only came into being in around the time of Berlioz, and has, perhaps, entered its declining phase. Almost no new orchestras are being formed - many are closing, or reducing their commitments. Governments no longer see much reason to provide funding - it's only a matter of time before they lose any remaining shame about being the people who shut it all down. Some are cheerfullly gleeful about being philistines.  It's not a good time for orchestral music.

Yet opera houses are making a go of it, even if the fare is thinning in concert halls. There's a plethora of new work being created, as a new generation realise the potential of a theatre equipped with a big orchestra, amazing light and technical facilities, and outstanding performers.

Chamber music is booming in direct disproportion to the rate at which orchestral concerts are declining.

And if classical music is declining, aren't we partly to blame?  Do we often go to concerts of new music?  I probably go only around once a month to new stuff - the rest of the time I go to music written by composers who are no longer with us.

As I always say, if asked to say something to audiences after performances - "Thank you for coming. Any performance without an audience is just another rehearsal."

[Dundonnell]

I entirely agree with you about the impact the economic climate and the attitudes of governments is making on the music scene :(

And I equally agree about concert-going and the need to support orchestras. Not only do I live approximately an hour by either car or train from two cities in which orchestral concerts are held on a weekly basis throughout the season but my own town has a Music festival and visits by touring orchestras. How often do I attend ??? Far too seldom :(

I recall attending a concert given by one of the BBC regional orchestras. At the interval I was talking to the Managing Director of the orchestra and we looked around at the audience. The overwhelming majority were aged 60 or over. He noticed a group of about four people in their late teens or early 20s and remarked that he felt like going over and giving them a hug ;D ;D The demographics of an audience in the Hague were similar. At least in Stockholm and in London one sees more young people :)

[kyjo]

I agree with Colin that the demographics of concert-goers are rather depressing :(. At a chamber music concert in Florida, I could have sworn that there were only two other people besides myself under 60 years of age in the (medium sized) audience :o :(. We need young(er) people to carry the torch for classical music-at least they'll be able to carry that torch for more than 10 years ::)! 

[Dundonnell]

I agree with Colin that the demographics of concert-goers are rather depressing :(. At a chamber music concert in Florida, I could have sworn that there were only two other people besides myself under 60 years of age in the (medium sized) audience :o :(. We need young(er) people to carry the torch for classical music-at least they'll be able to carry that torch for more than 10 years ::)! 

Thank you very much, Kyle ::) ;D

[Neil McGowan]

One other, slightly facetious point on this topic...

... Mr Norman Lebrecht has been touting 'the death of Classical Music' for some time now (whilst continuing to live on its proceeds).

Since Mr Lebrecht is almost always wrong, to have him chipping in on behalf of the 'no hope' faction can only give succour to those of us who believe classical music has a bright future ;)