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1  Little-known music of all eras / Discussion of obscure composers / Re: Prokofiev - early unknown symphony on: January 17, 2019, 03:06:29 pm
I very much hope that members will have recognised by now that I have tried to avoid intervention in discussion in threads.

Can I simply and respectfully suggest that sticking-as far as is possible-to discusion of music is to be preferred to political debate.
2  Little-known music of all eras / Discussion of obscure composers / Re: Immanent closure on: January 17, 2019, 03:00:39 pm

I was previously of a mind to delete or at least lock this thread but decided to give members the opportunity to make their own minds up about the "nature" of the threat contained in the initial post. I have now deleted the link provided to the site mentioned in the initial post. I see no reason to advertise a site set up in direct opposition to this one.
3  Little-known music of all eras / Discussion of obscure composers / Re: Immanent closure on: January 17, 2019, 02:55:08 pm
Looks as though we are slowly descending into a new dark age fueled by mindless drugged leftist technocrats..

I do not know to what or to whom this comment refers but the use of words like "drugged" and "leftist" is inappropriate on this forum.

We all have our own musical tastes and preferences and we air these with due respect to others. We-no doubt-also have different "political perspectives" but this is not the place to express emotive statements which can only confuse and offend.

4  Little-known music of all eras / Discussion of obscure composers / Re: Immanent closure on: January 15, 2019, 11:05:34 am
The member who opened this thread and who was, if I recall correctly, previously identified by Neil McGowan as a "sockpuppet" identity of the former administrator who went by the name of "Sydney Grew" has lain low for a few months since the miserably sad furore on the forum back in October.

He/she/they is/are perfectly entitled to start a new forum elsewhere.

He/she/they is/are not entitled to come back here making such wild and outrageous threats repeating the old calumnies.

"Gerard"'s Membership of this forum has therefore been terminated with immediate effect.
5  Little-known music of all eras / Discussion of obscure composers / Re: Your Discovery of the Year on: December 30, 2018, 04:58:11 am
I have only just realised that you have posted a link to the actual Dutton recording of the Damase symphony, Kyle.

Please remove it!! We went through the mill with this issue a few months back (as you may not realise!). The Dutton recording can be purchased.....and should be purchased. We cannot prevent those interested in sampling it from going to You Tube but we do not post such entire recordings on here.

My apologies Colin! I did not realize that was a policy here. I will remove it right away and replace it with an Amazon link instead. Smiley

Your co-operation is warmly appreciated! If you take a look at the You Tube performances section of the forum you will find the threads and posts which relate to this issue and the lengthy discussion we had here at the time. I very much doubt that anyone will wish to re-open that discussion (I certainly don't!) but what finally emerged was a "firm line" (yes, I think we could call it a "policy") to which we have adhered since then.

Don't apologise, Kyle. There is no need. In some ways you can count yourself fortunate to have been "on holiday" (from the forum, I mean obviously Smiley) and did not have to live through the difficult times we had Roll Eyes
6  Preliminaries / Greetings / Happy Christmas/Holiday Season to All Members on: December 21, 2018, 03:03:42 pm
This thread is normally used by new members introducing themselves but it seems appropriate to use it to send Greetings to All Members.

We would imagine that many members will have other things on their minds and other commitments over the holiday season and may not visit the Forum very often or at all.

Before then therefore we would wish to extend to All Members our Very Best Wishes for a Happy and stress-free time over the period.

The Forum went through a rather difficult and trying phase a couple of months ago. The support and encouragement of members was and is deeply appreciated by the current Administration. Without that support it would have been more difficult to weather the storm.

This remains YOUR forum and your participation or simply your interest is essential to its state of health.

Many Thanks!!
7  Preliminaries / What this forum offers you / Forum Rules on: December 21, 2018, 01:00:20 am

"Also please note that new members are expected to make at least three posts in their first two weeks, and the membership of people who have contributed nothing for six months will be automatically cancelled".

We have been meaning to address this for some time. The quote comes from the set of basic Forum Rules set out some years ago by the previous Administration.

As far as we are aware the quoted rule was never enforced. Nor, in our submission, should it ever have been enforced. Members are perfectly entitled to read the contributions of others without feeling any requirement to post anything of their own-for whatever reason. Obviously we would hope that as many members as possible would contribute and we are always grateful to those who do........but it is not an obligation.
8  Little-known music of all eras / Downloads discussion / Re: British and Irish Music on: December 12, 2018, 12:37:40 pm
It is only prudent to point out to members that the British and Irish Music Archive on this site has been effectively "frozen in time" now for almost a year. The Archive was assembled-with enormous effort-by Albion (John). He also compiled the huge catalogue. It represents, quite probably, the most impressive and comprehensive collection of British music in existence and available to members of this forum to download for their personal enjoyment.

For whatever reason Albion has not been "on the forum" since February. He has not been able to respond to pms or emails. What this means is that the Archive has not been updated since then. More seriously it means that there may be the possibility that it could simply disappear since the vast number of pieces are stored on Albion's Mediafire account. If that was closed-again for whatever reason then the contents would no longer be available for download.

All would certainly NOT be lost! First of all, the individual compositions were uploaded originally by members and the overwhelming majority are still available from them on their own Mediafire or other similar uploading sites. Secondly, I downloaded most of the music to my own hard drive (as have others, including Latvian!). Most could therefore be restored, reuploaded for new members or others who had perhaps either lost their copies or developed a new interest in a particular work.

And although the catalogue is "frozen" there have been few new uploads over the past year and those that have been provided by members can be found on the last page of the Downloads thread.

There is therefore no need for serious alarm.....which is of course not to say that we do not regret and are concerned about Albion's absence from the forum!

Dundonnell.
9  Little-known music of all eras / Youtube performances / Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers on: November 14, 2018, 11:53:04 am
Members had to endure weeks of this nonsense. For the last month the forum has returned to the pattern of posting and to the tenor of posts to which members were accustomed prior to that.

What we cannot permit is the re-opening of an exchange which it would be grossly inaccurate to describe as discussion or debate.  The assertions regarding "stolen or pirate passwords", "dismissed administrators", "unsuitability", "warnings from the owners of Unsung Composers" are as offensive as they are manifestly untrue.

The current administrators have every reason to believe that they continue to retain the confidence and support of the overwhelming majority, if not all, of the membership. Many members have indicated this either publicly or by private message.

We have no intention of responding further to irrational and outrageous allegations. We responded in very considerable detail and as calmly as was possible at the time the allegations were first made.

Neil McGowan suggested several weeks ago that "Henrietta Pedal" was a "sockpuppet" for the former administrator. The fact that a member with this name had not posted here since October 2017 would tend to indicate that Neil may well be correct.

In the circumstances and for obvious reasons immediate and decisive action is being taken in an attempt to cut this off at source.
10  Little-known music of all eras / Youtube performances / Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers on: October 23, 2018, 02:51:46 pm
As members will perhaps appreciate this transcription (copying and pasting!) has involved a little effort.

It has not been done with the intention of re-opening the debate.

It has been done to try to ensure that no contribution made by members should be lost due to the deletion of the original thread.

Members who wish to continue to discuss the issue are free to do so but it would be helpful if such contributions were made here rather than elsewhere. It would also be much appreciated if comments offered fresh perspectives rather than rehearsing "accusations" which were made at the time and which were refuted. From many private messages received and from comments made publicly there does seem a consensus that it might be time to "move on" Smiley
11  Little-known music of all eras / Youtube performances / Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers on: October 23, 2018, 02:38:43 pm
The Administration, October 17:

We have a policy on this forum, stated and re-stated, certainly since I became a member six years ago.

If a member uploads the contents of a commercially available cd to Mediafire and then posts a link to that upload making it possible for members (indeed inviting members) to download the music free of charge we politely request that the member removes the link. This has been done regularly over the years. Members have complied with such requests. There has been a consensus that it is the right thing to do.

The same policy applies to You Tube videos IF the uploads to YT are commercially available cds. It does not apply to uploads here of music recorded from the radio or from out of print LPs, whether those uploads are on Mediafire or on YT. I have uploaded hundreds of pieces of the second category to Mediafire and made them available and I have downloaded thousands of pieces from such sources.

As I said before, what goes on at You Tube is their business. I have no idea if there are any "arrangements" between the companies issuing cds and You Tube. What I cannot imagine is that a small, independent record label which depends for its survival on making at least a minimal profit and which issues cds for sale or which makes it possible for customers to download the music on payment of a sum of money can benefit from individuals posting their cds online and making possible downloading for free. This practice is, in my personal opinion and that of the administrators of this forum, potentially ruinous to the record labels concerned. It will kill them commercially. We could forget getting so much of the rare, obscure composers and their music so many of us enjoy!

I have begun the process of removing links to commercially available cds from this site. I am trying to do this carefully, removing only those links which do not comply with our policy. In some cases it has not proved possible to do this as selectively as I would have wished because of a mix of commercial and non-commercial recordings in the same post. Current members can be reassured that their posts are not being "interfered with".

The Alfano symphonies's links at the beginning of this thread will "have to go". I shall however copy and paste all the comments made by members into a separate thread so that none of the discussion is lost.

To save me extra work I am locking this thread. This does not mean that members who wish to express further views cannot do so elsewhere. I just very respectfully request 24-36 hours to carry out the necessary last checking and to copy and paste all the valuable comments made by members.

As ever, the thanks of the Administration for your patience and understanding through what has been a difficult time for this forum.
12  Little-known music of all eras / Youtube performances / Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers on: October 23, 2018, 02:37:47 pm
Dundonnell, October 16:

I have posted in the "Action taken by Administrators" thread in the Announcements section.

I appreciate that is a "closed thread" to which members cannot reply. As I have said several times recently members who wish to communicate their views can do so by posting publicly or by private message to me as "Dundonnell" or as "Administrator" or to Maris (Latvian) equally in either capacity.

After a week away from home and a week of enforced absence from this forum I would hope to see it return to its focus on the music in which we are interested and the music to which we may wish to draw the attention of others.

I understand the nature and content of the views expressed above regarding You Tube videos. My task now will be to correctly identify those which are copied directly from commercial cds and to take appropriate action.

If I delete these-in line with what I believe to be a general consensus amongst the membership and within the spirit of this forum's policy and accepted practice over many years-then that will mean the deletion of the entire thread and the lengthy, thoughtful comments made above. To lose these comments would be painful (to me as well as, obviously, their authors!). I cannot simply delete the first post. Ideally I would like to move all the comments into a new thread. This would retain all the benefits of the insights of the members who posted.

As ever, I would appreciate any observations members might wish to make.

Relm1, October 17:
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 16, 2018, 05:38:50 pm
I would hope to see it return to its focus on the music in which we are interested and the music to which we may wish to draw the attention of others.

This.
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 16, 2018, 05:38:50 pm
If I delete these-in line with what I believe to be a general consensus amongst the membership and within the spirit of this forum's policy and accepted practice over many years-then that will mean the deletion of the entire thread and the lengthy, thoughtful comments made above. To lose these comments would be painful (to me as well as, obviously, their authors!). I cannot simply delete the first post. Ideally I would like to move all the comments into a new thread. This would retain all the benefits of the insights of the members who posted.

As ever, I would appreciate any observations members might wish to make"

This is a very straight forward topic and I don't get the debate.  I agree with you that this site should remain compliant with copyright laws and not post music that is commercially available unless the posted link is owned by the copyright holder (eg: Naxos posting a Naxos release) where they do receive a form of revenue stream in their business model.  Some of us who visit this site are professional musicians who make a living through music and actually post our music on youtube or spotify where we get revenue (though meager).  If someone else posts the link we lose that revenue.  The discussion ends there.  They stole it.  I have the right to decide if its worth pursuing it because in most cases the revenue is extremely modest but still it is theft.

13  Little-known music of all eras / Youtube performances / Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers on: October 23, 2018, 02:35:52 pm
Greg K, October 14:

Naxos of America (assuming it's truly Naxos of America) isn't posting their own recordings on YouTube but rather those of labels they distribute.  I mentioned Toccata Classics as one of them, virtually the entire catalog of which seems to have been made available there.  Is it plausible to believe some individual would so systematically and voluminously (and recklessly) do this posing as "Naxos of America", soundwave106?   In my case, at least, this hasn't had a bad outcome for Toccata Classics sales, inasmuch as after listening to many of their releases on YouTube I've purchased numerous CD's I otherwise might not have without the opportunity to hear the music beforehand.   I've questioned (elsewhere) how Toccata Classics themselves might evaluate Naxos's practice in this regard, but apparently Naxos has contractual rights to do so as they see fit (or so another poster in that previous discussion affirmed).  I agree with any prohibition here of posting links to YouTube material in commercial circulation, and don't believe individuals uploading copyrighted recordings there should be doing so, but if recording companies or their distributors are themselves practicing (or even just indulging) such, the rationale of our Administrators (beyond legal considerations) for establishing such a rule can at least be questioned.


Soundwave 106, October 15:

Quote from: Greg K on October 14, 2018, 06:40:02 pm
Naxos of America (assuming it's truly Naxos of America) isn't posting their own recordings on YouTube but rather those of labels they distribute.  I mentioned Toccata Classics as one of them, virtually the entire catalog of which seems to have been made available there.  Is it plausible to believe some individual would so systematically and voluminously (and recklessly) do this posing as "Naxos of America", soundwave106?

The way I evaluate if a channel is truly official is to go to the official web page and click on the Youtube social media link. You are usually directed to the official Youtube channel.

In the case of Toccata Classics, this is their channel. And it does appear like, for a certain select period (up until 2015), they were "okay" enough including full works that were uploaded by others (note: as far as I can tell, none of the complete works were uploaded by the channel) that they incorporated the release into their channel.

It's difficult to tell what happened here -- maybe this is the result of some bot work that switched the monetization of other people's uploads, maybe the uploaders are affiliated. But it is my personal opinion that it is okay to post any Youtube link that is validated as being okay with the record company (if an official record channel source has the release on their channel, I take this as a sign of approval.)
14  Little-known music of all eras / Youtube performances / Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers on: October 23, 2018, 02:34:30 pm
Paul Corfield Godfrey, October 14:

When I responded on 6 October to Dundonnell's request for comments, I hardly anticipated the storm of invective and counter-accusation that resulted. Clearly there are issues here which call for resolution between the parties involved.

However the most important feature which my comment on 6 October - the need to ensure that record companies and performers continue to explore the outer fringes of the repertory with some prospect of financial return - seems to have been comprehensively overlooked with the exception of Greg K on 8 October who commented that my arguments appeared to be "somewhat ambiguous". I daresay that the matter is not entirely clear cut either one way or the other, but the argument that Naxos in the USA have posted recordings on YouTube themselves cannot be regarded as conclusive. In the first place, my understanding is that most if not all of Naxos's releases are (or at any rate were at one time) paid for outright at the time of issue and that, therefore, once the initial costs of pressing, distribution and payment to the artists were covered, no further royalties were paid. This means effectively that Naxos can release the recordings on YouTube free of charge without incurring any loss - a commendably generous attitude by the company, but one without any financial consequences either for the label or the artists. The same considerations probably apply to other labels.

Where, however, the company issuing the recording has entered in a contractual agreement with the performers and/or composers to pay royalties on the basis of ongoing sales, the availability of the recording on YouTube will undercut this - and this was the principal point I was trying to make in my original comments on 6 October. This in turn may influence companies and performers to shy away from future releases - which is presumably something which nobody involved with this form wants.

The issue as to whether the recording is being "hosted" on this site or simply "linked" to it is peripheral to this more fundemental consideration. And I have no doubt whatsoever that some of the YouTube links are in breach of the copyright owner's rights, if those owners chose to challenge these (many no doubt will regard the fuss involved as prohibitive, but that is their concern). The existing and long-standing policy, that commercially available recordings should not be made freely available on the internet, seems to me to be both just and eminently sensible. The sheer volume of riches available (including quite a few otherwise unavailable recordings I have myself made available) is surely worth preservation.

Soundwave 106, October 14:

As I've said in another thread, Naxos has an official channel of which I find no complete postings, just excerpts. I am suspicious that Naxos would ever officially release a full version of any commercial CD on Youtube, regardless of what someone has said on a posting. Personally I imagine Naxos would much rather you utilize their own subscription streaming service instead -- I am strongly doubtful that they would undermine their own streaming service by posting works to Youtube. Anyone can write "provided by Naxos of America" in their description and copy logos when posting a piece of music, that doesn't mean that the company officially supports it.

It is possible, of course, that they "look the other way". That doesn't mean it's "official" however. As a matter of a fact, it is easy enough to see people complaining about Naxos of America issuing copyright claims against a Youtube work (see this Reddit thread on someone being given notice for using game music from Civilization 5) so it might be more of a case of "why bother?" for a low viewer count piece of obscure classical music that the poster might not even be trying to monetize.

15  Little-known music of all eras / Youtube performances / Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers on: October 23, 2018, 02:32:52 pm
Latvian, October 8:

Greg K wrote:

“While the irrevocable nature of Sydney's "handover" of AMF administration to other members seems evident (even if not explicit), it was advisable that the eventual (rather inchoate) assumption of such authority and duties by Colin and Maris be formally validated by a change in the system password with Sydney's imprimatur AT THAT TIME (the new password being known only to the new administrators).

This not having been done has disastrously allowed the current impasse of discordant understandings and outraged emotions among the parties involved to threaten the forum's flourishing (if not continuance) in my judgment”

There seemed to be no need to change the password at the time of the handover. Sydney not only relinquished the administration of the forum but essentially tossed it in our laps, unbidden, and walked away.

No outraged emotions on my part, nor Colin's from what I've read so far. Sydney seems to be the only outraged voice here. Me, I'm tending more toward bemused disappointment at Sydney's absurd behavior. I find it sadly reminiscent of a certain well-known American politician who refuses to acknowledge past statements and actions even in the light of irrefutable documentation.

Sydney Grew wrote:

“On 28th September, when I dismissed Dundonnell, I set a new simple password: just seven letters "s.....W"

This is an absurd statement. I don't know where he thinks he set this alleged password but no one has hacked anything. If Sydney "dismissed Dundonnell" as he claims and then set this new password then why didn't he effectively assume control of the forum at that time, rather than whine about hacking?

This foolishness has gone on long enough. So far, I haven't seen a single public post or private message indicating member support for Sydney's wild accusations, and his behavior has become an unwelcome distraction to members engaged in civil discussion and our shared passion for music. If Sydney has a valid case to make, let him make it now, calmly and clearly, with appropriate proof. Otherwise, the administration will consider more serious measures to put this matter to rest if he persists in violating forum rules and making unsupported accusations.


Neil McGowan, October 9:

Quote from: Latvian on October 08, 2018, 07:49:21 pm
This foolishness has gone on long enough.

Indeed it has. Thank you to Latvian and Dundonnell for taking appropriate action.


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