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1  Little-known music of all eras / Youtube performances / Re: Franco Alfano - his two smphonies on: October 17, 2018, 12:16:12 pm
We have a policy on this forum, stated and re-stated, certainly since I became a member six years ago.

If a member uploads the contents of a commercially available cd to Mediafire and then posts a link to that upload making it possible for members (indeed inviting members) to download the music free of charge we politely request that the member removes the link. This has been done regularly over the years. Members have complied with such requests. There has been a consensus that it is the right thing to do.

The same policy applies to You Tube videos IF the uploads to YT are commercially available cds. It does not apply to uploads here of music recorded from the radio or from out of print LPs, whether those uploads are on Mediafire or on YT. I have uploaded hundreds of pieces of the second category to Mediafire and made them available and I have downloaded thousands of pieces from such sources.

As I said before, what goes on at You Tube is their business. I have no idea if there are any "arrangements" between the companies issuing cds and You Tube. What I cannot imagine is that a small, independent record label which depends for its survival on making at least a minimal profit and which issues cds for sale or which makes it possible for customers to download the music on payment of a sum of money can benefit from individuals posting their cds online and making possible downloading for free. This practice is, in my personal opinion and that of the administrators of this forum, potentially ruinous to the record labels concerned. It will kill them commercially. We could forget getting so much of the rare, obscure composers and their music so many of us enjoy!

I have begun the process of removing links to commercially available cds from this site. I am trying to do this carefully, removing only those links which do not comply with our policy. In some cases it has not proved possible to do this as selectively as I would have wished because of a mix of commercial and non-commercial recordings in the same post. Current members can be reassured that their posts are not being "interfered with".

The Alfano symphonies's links at the beginning of this thread will "have to go". I shall however copy and paste all the comments made by members into a separate thread so that none of the discussion is lost.

To save me extra work I am locking this thread. This does not mean that members who wish to express further views cannot do so elsewhere. I just very respectfully request 24-36 hours to carry out the necessary last checking and to copy and paste all the valuable comments made by members.

As ever, the thanks of the Administration for your patience and understanding through what has been a difficult time for this forum.
2  Little-known music of all eras / Youtube performances / Re: Franco Alfano - his two smphonies on: October 06, 2018, 10:11:23 pm
Thank you very much, Paul !

Your observations are made the more telling and pointed based on your own personal experience of the damage done to record companies by the practice you describe. The increasing difficulties small record labels face in attempting to find the funding to record more "obscure" music are well-known and have been highlighted repeatedly on this forum.
These difficulties can only be made more acute if potential customers are "encouraged" to download for free  the cds which the companies have struggled to release.

This is the reason why we have a policy on this forum. That policy has been restated repeatedly over recent days.

In line with forum policy and for the reasons articulated above these links will be deleted. This will entail deleting the thread itself.

Once other links have been properly checked and their origin verified those- and only those-which breach forum policy will also be deleted.

Members have posted thousands of links which derive from other sources. I have downloaded most of them during my time as a member. These links will not be deleted!
3  Various / Miscellany / Re: Warning to all Members on: October 03, 2018, 11:40:05 pm
This is all very sad!

Instead of responding to the statement issued by me on behalf of the current Administration-,1348.msg33405/topicseen.html#msg33405

and fully endorsed by my co-administrator Maris (Latvian) on the thread linked above, Sydney has chosen to describe us as "wreckers" and has advised members to save "any vital data" they may have. He talks about "wild and ignorant talk of the wholesale deletion of other peoples' posts".

I am not going to repeat the content of the statement linked above. But I want to reassure members that the administrators who took up the responsibility back in March when Sydney voluntarily and for his own reasons relinquished the role are the same people who now continue to administer this forum. We are not "wreckers". No "vital data" belonging to members is at any risk.

There will be no "wholesale deletion" of posts. In the seven months that the current administrators have been responsible for the forum the only posts deleted (around three in total) have been those which were clearly links to non-musical, "dodgy" websites put up by members who posted once and then promptly disappeared. We also deleted a post which provided a link to a pirate site specifically targetted by the FBI.

What will happen is that the forum's established and agreed policy will be enforced. This was explained in the linked statement. The administrators have a legal and, at least as importantly, an ethical responsibility to do so.

What we are determined on however is to ensure that only those posts which replicate commercially available cds derived from You Tube are deleted. This will involve careful checking. We have no intention and wish to avoid deleting anything which complies with forum policy. There are thousands of links on this site to performances of music which do not derive from commercial cds. These links are safe and will most certainly not be removed or interfered with.

Neil's comments above are blunt and harsh. Very sadly however we have to say that the essence of his post is both to the point and correct.
4  Little-known music of all eras / Youtube performances / Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers on: October 02, 2018, 05:59:00 pm
Could we please have a clear statement as to who is/are now the moderators of this messageboard?

A STATEMENT (from Dundonnell)

Neil asks a legitimate and reasonable question. It is a question which must have occurred to other members over the past week. Indeed Greg as already made humorous comment on the situation.

The delay in responding to Greg and in restating a position I had already outlined over a week ago was because I wished to reflect on all the implications and ramifications of the current sad situation. "Sad" because of the echoes of what happened on another forum a few years ago. I also wanted to reflect on what other members had posted. Unfortunately Latvian (Maris) has not been on the forum since Tuesday of last week and I have been unable to contact him directly and get his perspectives.

There are three aspects to the situation in which Sydney Grew has chosen to post links to You Tube Videos which are in fact taken directly from commercially available cds issued by BIS, CPO and (in the most recent case of the Louis Glass symphonies) Danacord. ( I must make it clear that I am not referring to and have no issue with any links to music not commercially available.)

The first aspect is legal or quasi-legal. I have taken legal advice on this. The uploading by individuals to You Tube of commercially available cds is a clear breach of the company concerned copyrights. Alluding to the existence of these recordings on You Tube is one thing but posting links, in fact reposting the entire videos on this site, is quite another.

As an administrator I could be held liable for such flagrant breach of copyright.

The second aspect is the ethical dimension. The companies which issued the cds in question depend on the income generated through customers either purchasing the cds or paying to download their content. Downloading the music for free from You Tube is in my opinion unethical and flies in the face of the standards to which we have always adhered on this forum. The inevitable consequence of such a practice is to put at risk the financial viability of the companies themselves and make it much less likely that the music we love or would wish to see recorded ever makes it to disc.

Sydney has said that You Tube is a "reputable company". I would not wish to make any comment on that statement; it would be improper of me to do so. The uploading of commercially available cds to You Tube is not however, in my judgment, "reputable". He writes that what happens on You Tube is their business. Indeed it is...but what happens on this site is our business.

Sydney says that he will take down the videos if he is contacted by someone with "authorisation". Authorisation derives from my perceived role as forum administrator and is based on my view of the ethical dimension of what has happened.

The final aspect of this (and the one which directly goes to the heart of Neil's question) relates to the duties and obligations of an administrator.

In March Sydney indicated that for perfectly valid and personal reasons he wished to stand down from the role of administrator. I took on that role, in partnership. I have to carry out my duties as I see them to be in honesty and with due recognition of my ethical and legal obligations.

For anyone who has voluntarily resigned the role of administrator to then six months later "return as temporary administrator", without any reference to the current administrators, is to place the latter in an impossible and intolerable situation. This is made worse by a clear difference of view about the policy and practices of the forum.

This forum belongs not to me or to any one individual. It belongs to the membership which supports it through their interest and their contributions through posts.

If my views are unacceptble to the membership then the road ahead is clear. However as long as I do remain an administrator it is my duty to make the membership fully aware of what these views are and my reasons for adhering to them.

I have not to date removed any of the posts which are involved.
5  Little-known music of all eras / Youtube performances / Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers on: September 27, 2018, 12:22:43 pm
(From Dundonnell in my capacity as an Administrator.)

Frankly my patience is becoming exhausted.

Most members probably are at least familiar with You Tube. Many probably use it either to listen to uploaded music or to download music from it. What individual members do in this regard is entirely a matter of personal choice.

Equally, what people choose to upload to You Tube is entirely up to them. The availability on You Tube of music derived from LPs which are no longer available from the company which originally issed them or of music which was broadcast by radio networks has brought an unbelieveable amount of neglected music to our attention and, if downloaded by any of us, to our collections.

It could and has been argued that it is at best "improper" to upload radio broacasts. This could be debated endlessly but the "horse has bolted". It is widespread practice and the radio networks appear to have no desire or intention of taking You Tube to court over the practice.

Speaking personally (and since I have yet to hear from other members on this issue) I DO have a serious issue with the uploading to You Tube of commercially available cds. There has been some speculation about the attitude of the companies involved on here but we have no clear word from them. It seems to me however something which, although it may be argued offers the companies and particular cds some publicity, is ultimately extremely dangerous for the future of these companies.

Firms like CPO, BIS, Chandos, Lyrita, Dutton etc etc are not operating on huge profit margins. Some struggle to survive. Their source of income obviously depends on them selling their cds to a small (albeit devoted) public. There may well be those who, having heard a cd in full and in total on You Tube, will then go out and purchase that cd. There will however be many others who will not do so, who will be content that they now have the music, downloaded from You Tube without paying a penny to the company-the company which has scrambled around to find the cash to pay an orchestra, a conductor, a choir, soloists, whatever.

This site is not a sub-forum of You Tube. We have always encouraged members who have recordings of music not otherwise available to the public to share these. We have all benefited enormously from the generosity of our members in this respect. If there is music uploaded to You Tube from non-commercial sources (ie which is not currently on cd) we have shared this information with others.

What we do not permit is members posting uploads of commercial cds or links to such uploads. If a piece of music was broadcast we allow it to be shared but the music or link is deleted if/when the same performance becomes available on cd.

If we now allow the posting of You Tube videos which are taken directly from a commercial cd we are undermining the very principles on which the rules of this Forum are based and damaging the interests and jeopardising the future of the record companies. Reposting the You Tube videos of this kind  is in essence a direct way of clearly pointing members towards the ability and opportunity to download this music at no cost to themselves.

I wrote last night that I was uncomfortable with this. Having thought further about the matter I am more than uncomfortable. I cannot endorse the practice and can be no part of it. As an administrator I took on certain responsibilities and obligations. I cannot perform such duties if this practice continues.

I repeat-with all possible emphasis-that I have no difficulties (and this site has never had any real difficulties, despite the reservations of certain respected members) with the uploading, downloading, advertising etc of You Tube videos which are NOT commercial cds.

I have Unlocked this topic in an attempt to encourage (indeed to positively solicit!) debate and discussion.

6  Little-known music of all eras / Discussion of obscure composers / Re: The Exotica Thread on: September 21, 2018, 03:00:40 pm

christopher asks a perfectly reasonable question.

Over the past month or two the point has been made repeatedly that the posting of links on this site must be with full consideration for the safety and security of other members.
There are links which are quite obviously trustworthy and verifiable. Members can see this from the "wording" of the link. Others may be to unfamiliar sites, addresses. Members may, indeed should, be initially wary of these in fear that they may, inadvertently (or just conceivably maliciously), take them somewhere they do not want to go. We are probably all recipients at one time or another of emails (sometimes but not invariably spam messages) which contain a link which arouses suspicion.

The advice is always NOT to click on such a link. This is the advice on this site.

The very strong recommendation to members who wish to post a link which may cause any degree of uncertainty is to briefly but clearly explain the source of the link and the site to which it will take other people.

This is a recommendation and a warning! The (relatively) new Administration has absolutely no desire to be or be deemed to be draconian but security is a priority and an obligation.
7  Little-known music of all eras / New recordings / Re: More Braga Santos on Naxos on: September 16, 2018, 12:26:23 am
A post from member Expi has been removed.

The reason for this is that he appeared to be encouraging members to access music on recently released cds free of charge from sites which either no longer exist or are effectively pirate sites.

The oft-repeated rules and standards of this forum rule out such behaviour here and, by implication, elsewhere.

Companies which take the trouble, effort and expense of recording music, particularly but not exclusively previously unrecorded music, deserve our support and our respect. If we wish them to continue in existence and to record music in which we are interested then we should purchase the cds.

,,,,,and Yes, I am well aware that some people upload these cds to You Tube and that the music can then be downloaded free of charge. This is not however a practice that we should condone let alone encourage.
8  Little-known music of all eras / Youtube performances / Re: Azarashvili on: August 15, 2018, 09:40:19 pm
After consultation with co-moderator Dundonnell, the original links posted in this thread have been removed. With apologies to rkhenderson, the original poster, who I am certain had no idea these links would cause subsequent problems.

For the record, I examined the URLs for the links and they appeared to be perfectly normal YT links with no additional redirects or other other links embedded. I also tested them with no adverse effects.

The only guess I can hazard to explain the problems some encountered would be that those individuals unknowingly had some sort of malware or other Trojan on their computers which was activated by these links, or some part of them. Again, just a guess, based on sad personal experience in the past, and please be clear I am making no accusations. If anyone has a better explanation, please let me know privately.

Suspicious links quoted in subsequent posts in this thread have also been deleted, to avoid the possibility of anyone accidentally clicking on them, resulting in further harm.

Thanks to all for their patience and understanding, and let me again recommend in the strongest possible terms, if you see a link that seems suspicious in any way, DO NOT click on it. Instead, please inform the Administration and we will investigate.

9  Little-known music of all eras / Youtube performances / Re: Azarashvili on: August 13, 2018, 01:53:51 am
Fellow members,

I have now consulted a friend of mine (not a member of this forum) and asked him for an opinion. He has had a look at the site and has clicked on the various links mentioned in the posts above.

For what it is worth:

He points out that the forum is hosted by a free site provider. We do not pay any rental fee to the host (I pay an annual rental fee to the company which hosts my own personal website).

There is therefore the distinct possibility, indeed probability, that our host provider will allow Ads to appear on our site. This will be how the host makes some income, since it is not from us!

This is not something we can simply wish away in the sense that the Administrators can "remove" these Ads. What members can do is to installl Ad-Blockers on their own devices. These MIGHT work but there is no guarantee of this. Members can be advised NOT to click on ANY link when there is the slightest doubt in their minds about these links.
You Tube links SHOULD be ok and those who have clicked on the link which started the present concerns have reported no "ill effects". Members are also-of course-advised to have anti-virus and anti-malware software installed on their devices.

I appreciate that the large "Banner Ad" at the top of each page with "Download" and "Play Now" is annoying in the extreme. I certainly cannot remove it.

As I said in my previous post I am open to any and all advice, guidance, suggestions that other members may have.
10  Little-known music of all eras / Youtube performances / Re: Azarashvili on: August 11, 2018, 10:09:16 pm
(From Dundonnell):

I am extremely sorry for my belated intervention in this thread. I was away from home on both Thursday and Friday evenings attending concerts at the Edinburgh Festival and only had a look at this particular thread when I noticed the number of posts it had attracted.

I wish I could express anything other than total helplessness.

When I accepted a role as an administrator I did try to explain that I had received absolutely no guidance or advice on "how the site worked". It was therefore inevitable that if anything "went wrong" (in the technical sense) I would prove completely and utterly useless to members. I have absolutely no technical knowledge, let alone expertise. I have to admit that honestly and candidly.

Latvian-one of my fellow administrators- MAY be able to help. I have messaged him as a matter of urgency. His knowledge and experience can only, however slightly, be greater than mine!!

I feel acutely embarrassed to be in this position but I honestly have no idea what I can do to help resolve the situation (apart from a somewhat pathetic appeal to members to try to keep calm and continue to treat each other with respect- in normal circumstances I would of course have deleted the extremely angry second post in this thread but these are not normal circumstances, I understand the reasons for the anger and I will let it stand).

If any member feels that he (or she?) has any possible technical solutions or strategies for tackling the problems described in the posts above then I am more than ready to offer whatever is required (eg administrator rights) if that would help.

I wish that I were able to point to a way forward but I am afraid that I cannot. Maybe Latvian (Maris) can?

My (ashamed) apologies!
11  Little-known music of all eras / New recordings / Re: Ruth Gipps symphonies on: August 05, 2018, 03:22:58 pm
just hearing the new chandos disk with the Gipps symphonies. as expected very disappointing. dull music which sounds like i heard a hundred times ago, simply redundant. sorry, but this isn't really relevant music.

Ok. This is a final warning! You post sporadically but almost always to decry the music of a particular composer. Repeatedly you use words like "redundant" or "relevant".
This has annoyed other members who have asked you to explain what you mean by "relevant". You have never done so. In fact the concept of relevance to music written in 1945 (the Ruth Gipps Symphony No.2) is meaningless. The suspicion must be that you continue to use this "means of attack" because you know how annoying it is to others.

You are fully entitled to expressing a musical opinion but when it is couched in the same terms over and over again that expression becomes both tedious to read and of zero value.

If you continue with your approach I shall simply delete the offending posts.
12  Little-known music of all eras / New recordings / Re: New Braunfels cd from CPO on: June 30, 2018, 12:18:06 pm
The last post from member Expi was removed.

This was not, primarily, because he informed us that he would not be buying this new cd: although that in itself can be of little interest to others, and certainly not because he considers Braunfels "over-rated": which is a legitimate view to hold.

The post was deleted because of the use of foul language which will NEVER be tolerated on this website. It was not acceptable under the previous administration. It is not under the new administration.
13  Little-known music of all eras / Youtube performances / Re: Harlap Clarinet Concerto on: June 22, 2018, 08:04:20 am
This is a rather disappointingly speedy example of the sort of post to which members were taking exception yesterday and which I advised against.

The piece of music in question may be on You Tube-which is a "reputable" source but there is no indication of who Aharon Harlap is, his country of originin, his date of birth/death(I have certainly never heard of him) or why his Clarinet Concerto may be of interest to other members.

Members are simply being invited to click on the link to find out for themselves. Some members might find that an intriguing prospect, others will find the work of no interest and will feel their time wasted.

To reduce the possibility of the latter it would be much more helpful to post a simple, short sentence giving some explanation of why the link is being posted. Please try to provide some such explanation in future. It does NOT require to be a lengthy essay but some guidance would be appreciated by those who raised this issue yesterday.

Thank you for your future co-operation Smiley
14  Preliminaries / Greetings / Re: Is this excellent forum 'dying' ? on: June 07, 2018, 11:11:14 pm
One thing I like about this forum is that it is totally driven by the contributors.. we don't have a moderator posting topics and then arguing with the members about what is or what should be..  it is somewhat like sending a message out into outer space and getting a response months or weeks later... but that is the beauty of the forum....  enjoy !!

Funnily enough I was just about to post on a new topic when I read your comments Smiley  Never mind, I can so I shall............ Grin
15  Little-known music of all eras / New recordings / Re: Unknown Martinu on: January 14, 2018, 08:36:01 am

Please remember our second rule and stick to Martinů, about whose music it is assuredly possible to say a great deal more. Thank you members.
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