The Art-Music, Literature and Linguistics Forum

A St David's Day performance of Grace Williams's Missa Cambrensis may close a gap in Colins choral list:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b071cyg7 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b071cyg7)

How lovely! Grace Williams is always good value!

I presume/hope that some kind soul will record this broadcast for us.....please!!

This will be only the work's second ever performance and at over an hour long is Grace Williams's biggest composition (apart, possibly, from the unpublished opera "The Parlour"). It is wonderful that the work is getting this second chance :)

I normally can record stuff off Radio 3 and post it, though it's not always as high quality as some would like.

 :)

However, as I'm not a Christian I don't listen to Christian music generally (and I think it was a pity GW wasted her time on this instead of writing another couple of Symphonies, or String Quartets (which are my religion)).

I was going to do it for you, but I see it involves narration by Rowan Williams  :( And I can't bring myself to sit through that.

(I can't just leave it recording and come back an hour later as our wonderful internet keeps on dropping out and I have to listen to spot when the glitches are, which I repair later).

That is entirely your prereogative.

I hope that someone else with the necessary equipment can record the work.

I will record the broadcast and upload a copy to the archive.

 :)

Albion, that would be marvelous!  Thank you very much.

Though also not being of any organized religious persuasion I am crazy about Requiems! Berlioz' "Sanctus" is so beautiful to me, especially the old recording with Charles Munch and Leopold Simoneau singing it. I can't relate to the text but the sounds ovewhelm me in much church or temple-related music. Sometimes, philistine that I am, and without a libretto, I also listen to operas just for the music, letting the vocal sounds become simply another part of the listening experience. So, perhaps there is a way, religious or not, to enjoy Grace Williams "Missa Cambrensis", and as someone else said, her other stuff is wonderful (to me, anyway).  Gotta admit, pieces with narration rarely float my boat but if the music is worth it, I will deal with that, too. Just a ramble, not a jibe nor criticism. Thanks, Jim

I believe that amongst the texts, Grace Williams sets Vernon Watkins poetry. Though none were Swansea born, Dylan Thomas, Daniel Jones and Vernon Watkins were members of the Kardomah Gang who regularly met up in a Swansea cafe. Grace Williams spent much of her life in Barry, close to Cardiff, and I guess we’ll find out tomorrow just how well she knew her fairly local contemporaries.

 Rowan Williams is, however, a Swansea born poet and great admirer of Vernon Watkins’ poetry, so the links are made, and his choice as narrator is a natural one. I do agree with Jim, though, about narration.in general.

Anyone interested in settings of Vernon Watkins may want to listen to Furnace of Colours by Christopher Painter on Youtube (Hoddinott pupil, and sounds like one! His Third Symphony is also up there).

I have added the Missa Cambrensis to the archive and updated the catalogue.

 :)

I am generally opposed to narration in music as being distracting and a bad idea, but here it is not too bad. I did listen to the broadcast, but with distractions. What helps here is that the narration is in Welsh, so for a non-Welsh speaker like me (and I suspect most of us) the effect is one of a quiet, not unmusical burbling of sounds from Rowan Williams with the strings beneath.

It is a great shame that this was only the second public performance of such a major work in 45 years - partly due to the difficulty of the choral writing. I have to say, though, that making allowances for the fact that I was not giving the work my full attention, there are other pieces by Williams I would look forward to re-hearing first.

Thanks for the posting of the work.  I have one too as a backup, and guess I had 28 days of iplayer had it gone wrong.

Well, what I first understood to be a 25 minute mass grew into a work with sections of the mass interspersed with narration and poetry, but I wasn’t sure if the poetry was sung or narrated. What we heard was quite different, substantially longer,  very powerful, and successful I think in moving away from the mass to the interlude and narration over orchestra, which must take a lot of practice.

I only read about the Vernon Watkins connection (my post above) in relation to this broadcast but despite searching joint names, nothing now comes up, although what does come up, as one would expect, is that they, and Daniel Jones, were friends, and she had earlier set a Watkins’ poem. It seems that the Watkins link to the mass was wrong. Apologies (yet again!).

Thank you, John, for the upload :)

Amazing score.  There's iron in this music, beauty and anger too.  Far exceeds so much pablum recorded today. The performers seem inspired to me and well recorded too.  I sense a CD forthcoming as the audience held their applause for some time.
Thank you very much.

According to this month's Gramophone, this performance was recorded by Lyrita for release in August this year

Thank you for that wonderful news.

Yes, good news indeed. The off air recording is badly marred by the tenor frequently not hitting his notes, I assume he had a cold and sore throat. I think it is a marvellous work and look forward to a good recording.

"Badly marred"? Of course I don't know what notes the tenor missed but I admired his determination not to let the performance be canceled, by their applause the audience obviously pleased not only his performance but his grit, and since we got to hear the lovely piece for the first time we are lucky. Wait for a studio recording if you wish, in the meantime I will listen to this performance happily.

Great news! I was lucky enough to be in the hall for this concert, it was quite an experience. Such a major work needs to be on CD.


Do you mean the bass, who had laryngitis? (an announcement was made to that effect before the performance)

It beggars belief that the BBC and Lyrita regard this broadcast performance as "un-releasable"... on what grounds?

 :o

I think that the situation may well be that the soloist who experienced difficulties during the performance may have refused permission for the recording to be released. If you recall Brian Rayner Cook refused permission for the Marco Polo recording of Havergal Brian's Symphony No.5 "Wine of Summer" to be released because of his dissatisfaction with his own performance.

Whilst it may be the case that a particular soloist has balked at the idea of commercial release, I find nothing in the performance that in any way diminishes the grandeur and beauty of Williams' setting. We are highly unlikely to get another chance to hear it sung (especially by the chorus) or played so well...

 :(

In which case we shall simply have to enjoy what we have- the off-air recording.

Indeed, highly enjoyable and moving it is! This highlights once again the crucial role that off-air recordings play in allowing one to get to know a work that may never be commercially released: few, if any, would be able to grasp a work of this scale on the provision of a sole un-repeated broadcast. It needs and deserves repeated listening...

 :)

I somehow seem to have lost my recording of the Missa Cambrensis and I can't now find the link in the archive to download it again. Can anyone help me, please?

I have re-uploaded the Missa Cambrensis for you, Gareth. I presume that you have all the details of performers?

Thank you very much indeed. Yes, I do have details of the performers.

I've checked and the link is still there. I still cannot believe that this performance is deemed unworthy of commercial release.

 :)

There was quite a bit on the web,at the time (and here,in Wales) & how the (former) Archbishop of Wales,Rowan Williams,was taking part. (And it get's a good review here!) All the more perplexing,that it should be canned! ??? Especially,if these are the forces assembled,for the recording?! I have been enjoying some Welsh composers recently (That Lyrita cd of William Mathias This Worlde's Joie,is grrrreeeat!! :)) but I ,must admit,I haven't heard this yet! Thank you for the re-upload. I have downloaded it,now.....and Ethel Smyth's,rather enjoyable (I seem to remember?) Mass.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/mar/02/missa-cambrensis-review-grace-williams-bbcnow (https://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/mar/02/missa-cambrensis-review-grace-williams-bbcnow)

I enquired last night of someone in a position to know about these things.
The legal position is that the BBC cannot release the performance for commercial sale without the consent of the performers. If one soloist has refused his agreement because of dissatisfaction with his performance then that is it....full stop!

Even if,every one else,involved in the performance,is happy with it?!! If they were?!! As they say,in Wales! Duw,Duw!! ??? :(

Oh,well! I've got the download,now! Musn't gwumble!! ::) ;D Incidentally,I enjoyed the Lyrita cd,of Mathias' This Worlde's Joie,so much;I bought a secondhand cd,of the old Chandos cd,of his Lux Aeterna,on ebay,this afternoon! Maybe,Daniel Jones,St Peter (which we,also,have here) could be another contendor,for a future Lyrita issue?! And then,of course,there are some choral works by Morfydd Owen,who is currently (deservedly,imo) receiving some,renewed,interest. It would make a change from Karl Jenkins,anyway!! ::) ;D But I musn't jump the gun!! ;D

I can't help but return to the non-release of this significant work on the Lyrita (or any other) label. The performance is strong and the vanity of a soloist should not deny all the other performers a chance to showcase their great ability. There is nothing in the broadcast that comes across as anything other than a great tribute to Grace Williams...

 >:(

Can we be quite clear about this please! What Anthony Smith of Lyrita said in his lengthy reply to my post on the Musicweb message board and copied in full in our Lyrita thread here is that the company and the BBC decided that the Grace Williams was "unreleasable". He gave no reasons for that decision.
It was MY speculation that the difficulties the particular soloist in question experienced during the live performance which had led to the decision and that he MAY have refused permission for the release. I DO NOT know that for a fact! The difficulties that night were commented on by some and were obviously real. Whether they are the reason for non-release I do not know.

Point taken, and I apologise for my assumption regarding the reason why a commercial release has been kyboshed: unfortunately, the wider listening public and the artists involved in the rendition will thereby probably never have access to what may well be the only modern large-scale professional performance of the work to come our way. Personally, I think that any shortcomings manifest in the broadcast should not override the significance of this fact. Is something better than nothing...?

 ???

Oh I totally agree with you there! Anyone can write to Lyrita to ask for a change of heart but since it appears to have been a decision taken in agreement with the BBC it is exceedingly unlikely to be reversed.

I was going to make a cd-r from the file here,this week;then discovered,I'd already made one!! :o ;D  I was just reading (albeit,belatedly! ::) ;D)  Tecwyn Evans' reply,on Youtube,to the posts,bemoaning the lack of performances and recordings,of this work! Tecwyn Evans stating,"One day,I hope!" This seems one of those works that just,are,bedevilled by bad luck! :(

Third time lucky,as they say?!! One can only hope?!!

I was thinking,Martinu's,Epic of Gilgamesh,is another choral work with narration. I usually like Martinu;but every time I put it on,it ends up getting switched off!! My loss,I know!! ::) :(

Tecwyn Evans was the conductor of the performance broadcast in March 2016.

This is his full response to those questioning the decision not to release the performance commercially:

"It would be wonderful to have a recording. Knowing people who knew Grace and were there at the premiere, I think if it had not been the disaster it was, she would have revisited the piece and made some revisions. She was extremely critical of herself and her work so the problems from the premiere probably made this an impossible task for her to consider. But still a proper record of the piece should be done. We tried but illness with some of singers on the night of this performance made it not an option to release. One day I hope!"

So, according to the conductor, the premiere in 1971 was a disaster-which it may well have been.

I find Mr. Evans's comments puzzling. He seems in the same breath to be attributing the 2016 "debacle" to both the composer-who might have revised the piece in the light of the "disaster" of the premiere performance back in 1971 but did not/could not-and to the "illness with some of the singers" in 2016.

So....are we to conclude from this BOTH that the work itself is seriously flawed and requires revision (but by whom one wonders) AND that the recent performance was inadequate? And if the former reason applies surely this would have been obvious to those studying the score or listening to the recording of the premiere; in which case, why try to revive a seriously flawed composition?

Well...we had better "enjoy" what we have because it is extremely unlikely that anyone will ever try again :(

I've finally got around to putting this on. In fact,I've just finished listening,now! Wow! :o There's some very impressive music making here,indeed! :o I was going to turn it off near the beginning. It seemed a bit austere and solemn for my taste;but wow;some of it (all of it!!) is just great!! What a crying shame the recording was blocked! If I'm listening to the soloist responsible;he does sound like he needs a Fisherman's Friend;but,even though this kind of work isn't usually my cup of tea;I was gripped to the end! I read something,somewhere,about some of the vocal writing being repetitive. Well,not to my ears! And for a work described as being of "Mahlerian length" (The Guardian,I think?) the time certainly passed quickly. That soloist,aside (and the music's so great,you soon forget about his vocal deficiencies) I really can't hear anything wrong with the work,itself! Again,I am very impressed,indeed! A truly magnificent piece of music,imho! And far more than,mere,curiosity value! If there was any justice.......!!! >:(