The Art-Music Forum

Little-known music of all eras => Youtube performances => Topic started by: the Administration on October 17, 2012, 02:07:40 am



Title: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: the Administration on October 17, 2012, 02:07:40 am
"Youtube" videos - some of them - can be exciting and worthwhile. If you find a good "youtube" video that contains music by a little-known composer, but does not clearly fit under any of the existing sections, this board will henceforth be the right place to link to it. Very Important: please use only short youtube links.


Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: Neil McGowan on October 17, 2012, 07:37:58 am
The suggestion of the 'short form' of the YouTube link seems very worthwhile, and will improve the visible appeal of the page :)


Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: Jolly Roger on April 19, 2013, 08:53:52 am
The suggestion of the 'short form' of the YouTube link seems very worthwhile, and will improve the visible appeal of the page :)
Please explain how the "short link" is obtained..


Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: the Administration on April 19, 2013, 09:56:39 am
Because of a limitation in the forum software, I would request all members to use the short forms of "youtube" links. They are easy to obtain. If you are watching the video, you will see below it a little tab labelled "Share":

(http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp233/Kerfoops/Share1.jpg)

Click on that, and a blue box will appear, containing the desired short link:

(http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp233/Kerfoops/Bluebox.jpg)

Simply hit control-C to copy that short link. You can then come back to the forum and paste that short link into your messages, and all will be well.



Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: Jolly Roger on April 21, 2013, 11:22:09 am
The suggestion of the 'short form' of the YouTube link seems very worthwhile, and will improve the visible appeal of the page :)
Please explain how the "short link" is obtained..

Thanks, your explaination was very clear and will be quite useful.


Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: Dundonnell on September 13, 2013, 01:15:36 am
I have downloaded a number of compositions from You Tube using Free You Tube Downloader.

Obviously I could upload any of these to Mediafire and provide a link (as I have just done with one such-the Geoffrey Bush Symphony No.1).

It may be however that this is not appropriate/approved behaviour and that instead the link to the You Tube file should be provided only ??? (If so I shall delete the Bush file at once).

I would appreciate guidance.....and if that guidance has already been provided I apologise in advance for asking for it again.


Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: the Administration on July 25, 2016, 01:53:59 am
Personally I would have no objection. All forms of commercialism - buying and selling - seem wrong to me; not activities to be supported. So please feel free to do whatever you yourself feel right. The more (high quality) links you post the merrier! And there are many alternatives to Mediafire; ulozto.net is just one example.






(Sorry for very very late response.)


Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: shamus on May 17, 2017, 04:29:07 am
https://www.youtube.com/user/MrJohannStraussViena/videos (https://www.youtube.com/user/MrJohannStraussViena/videos)

Delightful youtube channel with lots of romantic and late romantic light overtures, intermezzos, etc. if you are into that.


Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: ahinton on May 17, 2017, 07:20:55 am
Personally I would have no objection. All forms of commercialism - buying and selling - seem wrong to me; not activities to be supported. So please feel free to do whatever you yourself feel right. The more (high quality) links you post the merrier!
That's all very well, but whatever gets uploaded to YouTube or wherever else cannot be so without such commercialism, since it all costs money. Furthermore, far too many people upload copyright material without first requesting the permission even of the artists, record companies, broadcasters &c., let alone the copyright owners, which is downright rude as well as disadvantageous to all those who have an interest in such material.

I've had to use YouTube's takedown facility more times than I can remember. I detest having to do it because in one sense it flies in the face of my rôle to promote certain music, but there's a simple answer and that is to try to encourage such uploaders only to upload extracts under the equivalent to the "fair use" policy applicable to literary writings; this not only avoids copyright infringements but also can encourage those who listen to those extracts to buy the recordings (in the case of those which are commercially available).


Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: the Administration on September 27, 2018, 12:22:43 pm
(From Dundonnell in my capacity as an Administrator.)

Frankly my patience is becoming exhausted.

Most members probably are at least familiar with You Tube. Many probably use it either to listen to uploaded music or to download music from it. What individual members do in this regard is entirely a matter of personal choice.

Equally, what people choose to upload to You Tube is entirely up to them. The availability on You Tube of music derived from LPs which are no longer available from the company which originally issed them or of music which was broadcast by radio networks has brought an unbelieveable amount of neglected music to our attention and, if downloaded by any of us, to our collections.

It could and has been argued that it is at best "improper" to upload radio broacasts. This could be debated endlessly but the "horse has bolted". It is widespread practice and the radio networks appear to have no desire or intention of taking You Tube to court over the practice.

Speaking personally (and since I have yet to hear from other members on this issue) I DO have a serious issue with the uploading to You Tube of commercially available cds. There has been some speculation about the attitude of the companies involved on here but we have no clear word from them. It seems to me however something which, although it may be argued offers the companies and particular cds some publicity, is ultimately extremely dangerous for the future of these companies.

Firms like CPO, BIS, Chandos, Lyrita, Dutton etc etc are not operating on huge profit margins. Some struggle to survive. Their source of income obviously depends on them selling their cds to a small (albeit devoted) public. There may well be those who, having heard a cd in full and in total on You Tube, will then go out and purchase that cd. There will however be many others who will not do so, who will be content that they now have the music, downloaded from You Tube without paying a penny to the company-the company which has scrambled around to find the cash to pay an orchestra, a conductor, a choir, soloists, whatever.

This site is not a sub-forum of You Tube. We have always encouraged members who have recordings of music not otherwise available to the public to share these. We have all benefited enormously from the generosity of our members in this respect. If there is music uploaded to You Tube from non-commercial sources (ie which is not currently on cd) we have shared this information with others.

What we do not permit is members posting uploads of commercial cds or links to such uploads. If a piece of music was broadcast we allow it to be shared but the music or link is deleted if/when the same performance becomes available on cd.

If we now allow the posting of You Tube videos which are taken directly from a commercial cd we are undermining the very principles on which the rules of this Forum are based and damaging the interests and jeopardising the future of the record companies. Reposting the You Tube videos of this kind  is in essence a direct way of clearly pointing members towards the ability and opportunity to download this music at no cost to themselves.

I wrote last night that I was uncomfortable with this. Having thought further about the matter I am more than uncomfortable. I cannot endorse the practice and can be no part of it. As an administrator I took on certain responsibilities and obligations. I cannot perform such duties if this practice continues.

I repeat-with all possible emphasis-that I have no difficulties (and this site has never had any real difficulties, despite the reservations of certain respected members) with the uploading, downloading, advertising etc of You Tube videos which are NOT commercial cds.

I have Unlocked this topic in an attempt to encourage (indeed to positively solicit!) debate and discussion.




Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: mjkFendrich on September 27, 2018, 02:17:36 pm
Hello Dundonnell,

I am in complete agreement with your statements / your opinion !

You expressed your reservations yesterday (and before), but the first thing I noticed today was a new post
linking to YouTube videos of commercial recordings of Dohnanyi's symphonies !!! (Dohnanyi is not really an unsung
composer, and anyone wishing to explore his works should have no difficulties finding easily available recordings of
his work. A simple search in YouTube would perhaps lead to the above mentioned videos - so no promotion on this
site is necessary. And anyone not aware of Dohnanyi having composed symphonies could lookup worklists such as
the ones you have compiled and generously made available here ....)

mjkF


Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: Dundonnell on September 27, 2018, 04:22:43 pm
Thank you for your supportive comments!

I have just spoken to a friend of mine who is a lawyer. He pointed out the possibility-and he readily conceded that it is a VERY remote possibility-that a record company, unwilling or unable to "take on" You Tube, might be less inhibited in at the very least pointing out to us that such reposting of their commercially recorded cds is both unacceptable and illegal.
As an Administrator of this Forum I would be deemed to have a responsibility in law in this regard.

Whilst this is almost certainly an extremely unlikely scenario it is not one that I am prepared to ignore.

I shall await a comment from my fellow Administrators but I give fair warning that it is now very probable that I shall remove the Dohnanyi, Enescu and Alfano threads (each of which contains commercial recordings). I shall examine the Rosenberg thread carefully since I suspect that it includes some non-commercial recordings.

Members have the opportunity to respond with their own thoughts on this matter and I would not wish to pre-empt any discussion. On the other hand, the longer this material remains online on this forum the greater the risk run.


Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: guest54 on September 28, 2018, 02:36:29 am
"the Dohnanyi, Enescu and Alfano threads (each of which contains commercial recordings)" we are told.

This is NOT TRUE. As far as I know no one has posted any "commercial recordings" on our forum. (A year or two ago an American did post all Shossakovitch's symphonies HERE but they were rapidly and rightly removed.)

What gets posted on You Tube is the business of You Tube and not our business.

Most of us now live in nominally free countries and we are free to inform other members "hey, such and such interesting and rarely heard work has appeared on You Tube and you can listen to it there" (NOT here, I emphasize). I for one have no interest in or knowlledge of the origins of any work that appears on You Tube.

To say that people should NOT be permitted to go off to You Tube and listen to anything they find there would be censorship of the worst kind.

The removal of what are mere hyperlinks to a respected and long-standing American company will simply bring our forum into disrepute.




Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: guest54 on September 28, 2018, 07:01:39 am
I have temporarily resumed the role of administrator, solely so as to avoid the threatened catastrophic loss of vital data.

In due course a poll of all our members may be arranged.

Normal service will not be interrupted.

S.G.


Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: mjkFendrich on September 28, 2018, 08:45:01 am
I heavily disagree with Sydney's oversimplifying statement

   
Quote
What gets posted on You Tube is the business of You Tube and not our business.

If a recording is illegally posted on YouTube (even if nobody cares) and this is easily recognizable (by looking at the CD covers displayed there),
we should not hyperlink it in this forum. Still anyone is free to lookup the video on YouTube himself. I would have no problems with mere hints,
e.g. statements like: "Alfano's symphonies are great works (recordings of them can also be found on YouTube)".

Linking to a playlist of some streaming provider would be a different case - there you normally need some kind of payed access to listen to the full work.

mjkF


Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: Greg K on September 29, 2018, 05:16:29 pm
I have temporarily resumed the role of administrator, solely so as to avoid the threatened catastrophic loss of vital data.

In due course a poll of all our members may be arranged.

Normal service will not be interrupted.

S.G.


I don't get it.  Was this like a coup?  Are the former administrators being held in detention, with their posting privileges suspended?


Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: soundwave106 on September 29, 2018, 06:39:59 pm
What gets posted on You Tube is the business of You Tube and not our business.

I think that, um, the content of the hyperlink does indeed matter in the end. Elsewise posting recent CDs uploaded to The Pirate Bay or Rutracker or some other torrent site would be entirely kosher.  :P

Youtube's a strange case, though, because it's not explicitly a site for pirates (it has a takedown mechanism and a way to report videos) and it does have a "content ID" system that tries to compensate musicians for the playback, even if they did not upload the work. A lot of musicians are unhappy at Youtube's meager streaming pay rate though (plenty of articles about that).

I think the risk to this forum is non-existent. If the original record companies wanted to take down the copyrighted content, they'd report it to Youtube directly, not to the small sites linking to it. So it's more of an ethical question in the end.


Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: Jolly Roger on September 30, 2018, 03:55:30 am
Personally I would have no objection. All forms of commercialism - buying and selling - seem wrong to me; not activities to be supported. So please feel free to do whatever you yourself feel right. The more (high quality) links you post the merrier!
That's all very well, but whatever gets uploaded to YouTube or wherever else cannot be so without such commercialism, since it all costs money. Furthermore, far too many people upload copyright material without first requesting the permission even of the artists, record companies, broadcasters &c., let alone the copyright owners, which is downright rude as well as disadvantageous to all those who have an interest in such material.

I've had to use YouTube's takedown facility more times than I can remember. I detest having to do it because in one sense it flies in the face of my rôle to promote certaion music, but there's a simple answer and that is to try to encourage such uploaders only to upload extracts under the equivalent to the "fair use" policy applicable to literary writings; this not only avoids copyright infringements but also can encourage those who listen to those extracts to buy the recordings (in the case of those which are commercially available).


Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: Jeff on September 30, 2018, 06:23:13 am
I don't understand why for example,Toccata Classics are available to download on youtube.

It says,'Brought to you by Naxos of America.'
Why do they do this,when it is so easy to download in whatever format you want?

Surely this is hurting a very fine company?


Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: Neil McGowan on October 02, 2018, 02:51:55 pm
Could we please have a clear statement as to who is/are now the moderators of this messageboard?


Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: the Administration on October 02, 2018, 05:59:00 pm
Could we please have a clear statement as to who is/are now the moderators of this messageboard?


A STATEMENT (from Dundonnell)

Neil asks a legitimate and reasonable question. It is a question which must have occurred to other members over the past week. Indeed Greg as already made humorous comment on the situation.

The delay in responding to Greg and in restating a position I had already outlined over a week ago was because I wished to reflect on all the implications and ramifications of the current sad situation. "Sad" because of the echoes of what happened on another forum a few years ago. I also wanted to reflect on what other members had posted. Unfortunately Latvian (Maris) has not been on the forum since Tuesday of last week and I have been unable to contact him directly and get his perspectives.

There are three aspects to the situation in which Sydney Grew has chosen to post links to You Tube Videos which are in fact taken directly from commercially available cds issued by BIS, CPO and (in the most recent case of the Louis Glass symphonies) Danacord. ( I must make it clear that I am not referring to and have no issue with any links to music not commercially available.)

The first aspect is legal or quasi-legal. I have taken legal advice on this. The uploading by individuals to You Tube of commercially available cds is a clear breach of the company concerned copyrights. Alluding to the existence of these recordings on You Tube is one thing but posting links, in fact reposting the entire videos on this site, is quite another.

As an administrator I could be held liable for such flagrant breach of copyright.

The second aspect is the ethical dimension. The companies which issued the cds in question depend on the income generated through customers either purchasing the cds or paying to download their content. Downloading the music for free from You Tube is in my opinion unethical and flies in the face of the standards to which we have always adhered on this forum. The inevitable consequence of such a practice is to put at risk the financial viability of the companies themselves and make it much less likely that the music we love or would wish to see recorded ever makes it to disc.

Sydney has said that You Tube is a "reputable company". I would not wish to make any comment on that statement; it would be improper of me to do so. The uploading of commercially available cds to You Tube is not however, in my judgment, "reputable". He writes that what happens on You Tube is their business. Indeed it is...but what happens on this site is our business.

Sydney says that he will take down the videos if he is contacted by someone with "authorisation". Authorisation derives from my perceived role as forum administrator and is based on my view of the ethical dimension of what has happened.

The final aspect of this (and the one which directly goes to the heart of Neil's question) relates to the duties and obligations of an administrator.

In March Sydney indicated that for perfectly valid and personal reasons he wished to stand down from the role of administrator. I took on that role, in partnership. I have to carry out my duties as I see them to be in honesty and with due recognition of my ethical and legal obligations.

For anyone who has voluntarily resigned the role of administrator to then six months later "return as temporary administrator", without any reference to the current administrators, is to place the latter in an impossible and intolerable situation. This is made worse by a clear difference of view about the policy and practices of the forum.

This forum belongs not to me or to any one individual. It belongs to the membership which supports it through their interest and their contributions through posts.

If my views are unacceptble to the membership then the road ahead is clear. However as long as I do remain an administrator it is my duty to make the membership fully aware of what these views are and my reasons for adhering to them.

I have not to date removed any of the posts which are involved.


Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: Latvian on October 02, 2018, 09:46:14 pm
My apologies to all for my protracted absence in the midst of this unexpected development. In short, as I've explained to Colin privately, my 89 year old mother has been hospitalized for the past week and I've been attending to her while continuing to work and prepare for upcoming concerts.

I am in full agreement with Colin that Sydney should have no expectation of reclaiming the administration of this forum after definitively relinquishing it earlier this year, nor is it appropriate for him to assume that he can just step back into his role with no consultation, much as he relinquished it with no consultation or discussion.

Further, as I understand the rules of this forum it is a violation of our forum's "prime directive" to post commercially available recordings, regardless of the format. Part of our mission here is to help record companies stay in business and continue to release music and performances we want to hear and own, and not take away potential business from them. Sure, we can all go to YouTube and listen to recordings in the course of considering whether to purchase the actual release. No problem in mentioning existence of such YT uploads here in the course of discussion, either, but let's not load up the forum with the actual recordings, linked or otherwise. We've always been very careful to take down uploads here once it's been shown any particular recording is in print.

Maris ("Latvian")


Title: Questions for Mr. Dundonnell
Post by: guest54 on October 04, 2018, 12:07:28 am
One day ago some one changed the administration password for this forum. They must have used some hacker's tool to do so.

A few minutes after the password was changed, you made a long post as administrator using the changed password and stolen user-name.

I must now ask you, Dundonnell, to tell us, who committed this act, and how was the pirate password communicated to you?

What is the present administration password of this forum, and who, apart from you, knows it?

Your long-term future at this forum depends on your honesty in responding to these questions.



Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: Neil McGowan on October 04, 2018, 12:30:00 am
I am sure none of us joined this message-board to witness this sad charade. 



Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: the Administration on October 23, 2018, 02:24:34 pm
I gave a commitment to remove the Franco Alfano thread for the reasons given at the time but to preserve all the comments made by members on that thread. It is impossible to simply delete the first post in a thread and keep all the others. As I promised I have undertaken a copying and pasting exercise and have used this thread for that purpose. I have not edited or amended any comments made by members on the Alfano thread. I had hoped to do this some days ago but it has taken much longer than expected to check the YT videos copied and identify those taken directly from a commercially available cd.

Dundonnell, September 27:

I am extremely unhappy to find these two Alfano symphonies here!

The You Tube performances are taken directly from the CPO cd which is still commercially available.

As I said in relation to the Hilding Rosenberg Symphony No.3 I do NOT think that we should be "hosting" these here.

My inclination as an Administrator is to take these down. I am extremely sorry that this will no doubt upset the former administrator who posted them.

I shall consult my fellow Administrator, Maris.

In the meantime any comments by members would be very much appreciated!!

Paul Corfield Godfrey, October 6:

YouTube is invaluable as a source for material that is otherwise unobtainable or impossible to obtain. I have had no objection to the posting on that forum of excerpts from my own music - it encourages interest and enables listeners to gain acquaintance with music with which they would not otherwise be able to encounter without difficulty. It is also frequently very useful as a means of viewing video and television recordings which have long been withdrawn from commercial circulation (although the quality can be highly variable).

On the other hand, the release of commercially available material, especially if it is still listed for sale in current catalogues (I exclude exorbitantly-priced second-hand copies on Amazon), is decidedly dangerous. I know from my own experience the small levels of sales for rare material experienced by record companies who step off the well-beaten path, and I have little doubt that listeners who can download their recordings free of charge from YouTube are effectively diminishing their sales still further. It is clearly for similar reasons that some popular entertainers have taken steps to restrict or ban their recordings from streaming services, since the loss in sales and royalties is significant.

It is difficult enough to get record companies interested in out-of-the-way material as it is (although of course the situation has improved immeasurably in recent decades) without restricting their commercial returns still further. As a composer myself, I hardly dare mention the issue of royalties...



Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: the Administration on October 23, 2018, 02:27:38 pm
The Administration, October 6:

Thank you very much, Paul !

Your observations are made the more telling and pointed based on your own personal experience of the damage done to record companies by the practice you describe. The increasing difficulties small record labels face in attempting to find the funding to record more "obscure" music are well-known and have been highlighted repeatedly on this forum.
These difficulties can only be made more acute if potential customers are "encouraged" to download for free  the cds which the companies have struggled to release.

This is the reason why we have a policy on this forum. That policy has been restated repeatedly over recent days.

In line with forum policy and for the reasons articulated above these links will be deleted. This will entail deleting the thread itself.

Once other links have been properly checked and their origin verified those- and only those-which breach forum policy will also be deleted.

Members have posted thousands of links which derive from other sources. I have downloaded most of them during my time as a member. These links will not be deleted!


Sydney Grew, October 7:

1)   they are not "hosted" here at all, never have been and never will be. The member has no understanding of my post.
2)   the member has no authority and is just posing as an administrator, secretly using a hacked
      password and stolen account. I think he should now admit it, give up this charade, and return   
      the forum to its honest members.

Latvian, October 7:

It's time to put an to Sydney's wild accusations. Here is the text of the personal message Sydney sent me on March 8th of this year. If he denies having sent this message then either his account was hacked at that time, or he clearly has a severe memory issue. I see no indication in this message that this was intended to be a temporary relinquishment and that he expected to return to administration of the forum. Indeed, in his first sentence he says he is handing over the forum:

“Gentlemen (and ladies?). The time has come to hand over the admin of this forum to some one younger. (Specifically, my eye-sight has become poor and it is difficult to read the screen easily.)

No one has so far volunteered, so I think the best thing to do will be to give the password to a few of the most active and responsible members.

I have found that there is very little needing to be done of late - perhaps I should have done much more to develop new features.

So, once you have decided on who will be the new administrator or administrators, he, she or they can log in with the user and password:

[user ID and password deleted]

Please let me know if there are any questions or problems.

Thanks for all the pleasure and interest you have given in the past, and I look forward to much more.

Sydney Grew”



Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: the Administration on October 23, 2018, 02:29:57 pm
Greg K, October 7:

While the irrevocable nature of Sydney's "handover" of AMF administration to other members seems evident (even if not explicit), it was advisable that the eventual (rather inchoate) assumption of such authority and duties by Colin and Maris be formally validated by a change in the system password with Sydney's imprimatur AT THAT TIME (the new password being known only to the new administrators).

This not having been done has disastrously allowed the current impasse of discordant understandings and inflamed emotions among the parties involved to threaten the forum's flourishing (if not its continuance) in my judgment.

Provoked by the YouTube imbroglio, Sydney now claims the successor administrators possess no legitimacy, and those current administrators now surreptitiously lock Sydney out of all access to administrative functions he again insists on.

Sydney effectively resigned, and cannot be allowed to regain his former position.  But the new administrators were never clearly and cleanly installed, which leaves something of a taint.

Conclusively though, Sydney must bear the brunt of blame for so incompetently managing a transition he himself initiated, and endure the consequences for himself of that mishandling.

I suggest he accept a status of no more than contributing member, and realize that however scrambled the history he now rebels against, it is in no wise going to be reversed.

Sydney Grew, October 8:

On 28th September, when I dismissed Dundonnell, I set a new simple password: just seven letters "s.....W"

That should still be in place. Only some hacker could have changed it. Who hacked it and why? No one has had the courage to come forward and admit doing it. And why is it being witheld from me?

Greg K, October 8:

What does it mean to "own" a site such as AMF, and can such ownership be effectively distinguished from the function of "administering" or "managing" it?  Does Sydney have any possibly valid argument in contending that he never gave up ownership of AMF, but only allowed others to take over its administration, - an allowance he could subsequently revoke (as continuing owner) should he become displeased with the course taken?

Greg K, October 8:

Quote from: the Administration on October 06, 2018, 10:11:23 pm
Thank you very much, Paul !

Your observations are made the more telling and pointed based on your own personal experience of the damage done to record companies by the practice you describe. The increasing difficulties small record labels face in attempting to find the funding to record more "obscure" music are well-known and have been highlighted repeatedly on this forum.
These difficulties can only be made more acute if potential customers are "encouraged" to download for free  the cds which the companies have struggled to release.

Making somewhat ambiguous your argument here is the fact (noted on the forum previously) that Naxos of America have themselves posted on YouTube a voluminous number of their own distributed commercial recordings for easy access by interested consumers (in the US, for example, virtually the entire catalogue of Toccata Classics, - and other labels).



Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: the Administration on October 23, 2018, 02:32:52 pm
Latvian, October 8:

Greg K wrote:

“While the irrevocable nature of Sydney's "handover" of AMF administration to other members seems evident (even if not explicit), it was advisable that the eventual (rather inchoate) assumption of such authority and duties by Colin and Maris be formally validated by a change in the system password with Sydney's imprimatur AT THAT TIME (the new password being known only to the new administrators).

This not having been done has disastrously allowed the current impasse of discordant understandings and outraged emotions among the parties involved to threaten the forum's flourishing (if not continuance) in my judgment”

There seemed to be no need to change the password at the time of the handover. Sydney not only relinquished the administration of the forum but essentially tossed it in our laps, unbidden, and walked away.

No outraged emotions on my part, nor Colin's from what I've read so far. Sydney seems to be the only outraged voice here. Me, I'm tending more toward bemused disappointment at Sydney's absurd behavior. I find it sadly reminiscent of a certain well-known American politician who refuses to acknowledge past statements and actions even in the light of irrefutable documentation.

Sydney Grew wrote:

“On 28th September, when I dismissed Dundonnell, I set a new simple password: just seven letters "s.....W"

This is an absurd statement. I don't know where he thinks he set this alleged password but no one has hacked anything. If Sydney "dismissed Dundonnell" as he claims and then set this new password then why didn't he effectively assume control of the forum at that time, rather than whine about hacking?

This foolishness has gone on long enough. So far, I haven't seen a single public post or private message indicating member support for Sydney's wild accusations, and his behavior has become an unwelcome distraction to members engaged in civil discussion and our shared passion for music. If Sydney has a valid case to make, let him make it now, calmly and clearly, with appropriate proof. Otherwise, the administration will consider more serious measures to put this matter to rest if he persists in violating forum rules and making unsupported accusations.


Neil McGowan, October 9:

Quote from: Latvian on October 08, 2018, 07:49:21 pm
This foolishness has gone on long enough.

Indeed it has. Thank you to Latvian and Dundonnell for taking appropriate action.




Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: the Administration on October 23, 2018, 02:34:30 pm
Paul Corfield Godfrey, October 14:

When I responded on 6 October to Dundonnell's request for comments, I hardly anticipated the storm of invective and counter-accusation that resulted. Clearly there are issues here which call for resolution between the parties involved.

However the most important feature which my comment on 6 October - the need to ensure that record companies and performers continue to explore the outer fringes of the repertory with some prospect of financial return - seems to have been comprehensively overlooked with the exception of Greg K on 8 October who commented that my arguments appeared to be "somewhat ambiguous". I daresay that the matter is not entirely clear cut either one way or the other, but the argument that Naxos in the USA have posted recordings on YouTube themselves cannot be regarded as conclusive. In the first place, my understanding is that most if not all of Naxos's releases are (or at any rate were at one time) paid for outright at the time of issue and that, therefore, once the initial costs of pressing, distribution and payment to the artists were covered, no further royalties were paid. This means effectively that Naxos can release the recordings on YouTube free of charge without incurring any loss - a commendably generous attitude by the company, but one without any financial consequences either for the label or the artists. The same considerations probably apply to other labels.

Where, however, the company issuing the recording has entered in a contractual agreement with the performers and/or composers to pay royalties on the basis of ongoing sales, the availability of the recording on YouTube will undercut this - and this was the principal point I was trying to make in my original comments on 6 October. This in turn may influence companies and performers to shy away from future releases - which is presumably something which nobody involved with this form wants.

The issue as to whether the recording is being "hosted" on this site or simply "linked" to it is peripheral to this more fundemental consideration. And I have no doubt whatsoever that some of the YouTube links are in breach of the copyright owner's rights, if those owners chose to challenge these (many no doubt will regard the fuss involved as prohibitive, but that is their concern). The existing and long-standing policy, that commercially available recordings should not be made freely available on the internet, seems to me to be both just and eminently sensible. The sheer volume of riches available (including quite a few otherwise unavailable recordings I have myself made available) is surely worth preservation.

Soundwave 106, October 14:

As I've said in another thread, Naxos has an official channel of which I find no complete postings, just excerpts. I am suspicious that Naxos would ever officially release a full version of any commercial CD on Youtube, regardless of what someone has said on a posting. Personally I imagine Naxos would much rather you utilize their own subscription streaming service instead -- I am strongly doubtful that they would undermine their own streaming service by posting works to Youtube. Anyone can write "provided by Naxos of America" in their description and copy logos when posting a piece of music, that doesn't mean that the company officially supports it.

It is possible, of course, that they "look the other way". That doesn't mean it's "official" however. As a matter of a fact, it is easy enough to see people complaining about Naxos of America issuing copyright claims against a Youtube work (see this Reddit thread on someone being given notice for using game music from Civilization 5) so it might be more of a case of "why bother?" for a low viewer count piece of obscure classical music that the poster might not even be trying to monetize.



Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: the Administration on October 23, 2018, 02:35:52 pm
Greg K, October 14:

Naxos of America (assuming it's truly Naxos of America) isn't posting their own recordings on YouTube but rather those of labels they distribute.  I mentioned Toccata Classics as one of them, virtually the entire catalog of which seems to have been made available there.  Is it plausible to believe some individual would so systematically and voluminously (and recklessly) do this posing as "Naxos of America", soundwave106?   In my case, at least, this hasn't had a bad outcome for Toccata Classics sales, inasmuch as after listening to many of their releases on YouTube I've purchased numerous CD's I otherwise might not have without the opportunity to hear the music beforehand.   I've questioned (elsewhere) how Toccata Classics themselves might evaluate Naxos's practice in this regard, but apparently Naxos has contractual rights to do so as they see fit (or so another poster in that previous discussion affirmed).  I agree with any prohibition here of posting links to YouTube material in commercial circulation, and don't believe individuals uploading copyrighted recordings there should be doing so, but if recording companies or their distributors are themselves practicing (or even just indulging) such, the rationale of our Administrators (beyond legal considerations) for establishing such a rule can at least be questioned.


Soundwave 106, October 15:

Quote from: Greg K on October 14, 2018, 06:40:02 pm
Naxos of America (assuming it's truly Naxos of America) isn't posting their own recordings on YouTube but rather those of labels they distribute.  I mentioned Toccata Classics as one of them, virtually the entire catalog of which seems to have been made available there.  Is it plausible to believe some individual would so systematically and voluminously (and recklessly) do this posing as "Naxos of America", soundwave106?

The way I evaluate if a channel is truly official is to go to the official web page and click on the Youtube social media link. You are usually directed to the official Youtube channel.

In the case of Toccata Classics, this is their channel. And it does appear like, for a certain select period (up until 2015), they were "okay" enough including full works that were uploaded by others (note: as far as I can tell, none of the complete works were uploaded by the channel) that they incorporated the release into their channel.

It's difficult to tell what happened here -- maybe this is the result of some bot work that switched the monetization of other people's uploads, maybe the uploaders are affiliated. But it is my personal opinion that it is okay to post any Youtube link that is validated as being okay with the record company (if an official record channel source has the release on their channel, I take this as a sign of approval.)


Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: the Administration on October 23, 2018, 02:37:47 pm
Dundonnell, October 16:

I have posted in the "Action taken by Administrators" thread in the Announcements section.

I appreciate that is a "closed thread" to which members cannot reply. As I have said several times recently members who wish to communicate their views can do so by posting publicly or by private message to me as "Dundonnell" or as "Administrator" or to Maris (Latvian) equally in either capacity.

After a week away from home and a week of enforced absence from this forum I would hope to see it return to its focus on the music in which we are interested and the music to which we may wish to draw the attention of others.

I understand the nature and content of the views expressed above regarding You Tube videos. My task now will be to correctly identify those which are copied directly from commercial cds and to take appropriate action.

If I delete these-in line with what I believe to be a general consensus amongst the membership and within the spirit of this forum's policy and accepted practice over many years-then that will mean the deletion of the entire thread and the lengthy, thoughtful comments made above. To lose these comments would be painful (to me as well as, obviously, their authors!). I cannot simply delete the first post. Ideally I would like to move all the comments into a new thread. This would retain all the benefits of the insights of the members who posted.

As ever, I would appreciate any observations members might wish to make.

Relm1, October 17:
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 16, 2018, 05:38:50 pm
I would hope to see it return to its focus on the music in which we are interested and the music to which we may wish to draw the attention of others.

This.
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 16, 2018, 05:38:50 pm
If I delete these-in line with what I believe to be a general consensus amongst the membership and within the spirit of this forum's policy and accepted practice over many years-then that will mean the deletion of the entire thread and the lengthy, thoughtful comments made above. To lose these comments would be painful (to me as well as, obviously, their authors!). I cannot simply delete the first post. Ideally I would like to move all the comments into a new thread. This would retain all the benefits of the insights of the members who posted.

As ever, I would appreciate any observations members might wish to make"

This is a very straight forward topic and I don't get the debate.  I agree with you that this site should remain compliant with copyright laws and not post music that is commercially available unless the posted link is owned by the copyright holder (eg: Naxos posting a Naxos release) where they do receive a form of revenue stream in their business model.  Some of us who visit this site are professional musicians who make a living through music and actually post our music on youtube or spotify where we get revenue (though meager).  If someone else posts the link we lose that revenue.  The discussion ends there.  They stole it.  I have the right to decide if its worth pursuing it because in most cases the revenue is extremely modest but still it is theft.



Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: the Administration on October 23, 2018, 02:38:43 pm
The Administration, October 17:

We have a policy on this forum, stated and re-stated, certainly since I became a member six years ago.

If a member uploads the contents of a commercially available cd to Mediafire and then posts a link to that upload making it possible for members (indeed inviting members) to download the music free of charge we politely request that the member removes the link. This has been done regularly over the years. Members have complied with such requests. There has been a consensus that it is the right thing to do.

The same policy applies to You Tube videos IF the uploads to YT are commercially available cds. It does not apply to uploads here of music recorded from the radio or from out of print LPs, whether those uploads are on Mediafire or on YT. I have uploaded hundreds of pieces of the second category to Mediafire and made them available and I have downloaded thousands of pieces from such sources.

As I said before, what goes on at You Tube is their business. I have no idea if there are any "arrangements" between the companies issuing cds and You Tube. What I cannot imagine is that a small, independent record label which depends for its survival on making at least a minimal profit and which issues cds for sale or which makes it possible for customers to download the music on payment of a sum of money can benefit from individuals posting their cds online and making possible downloading for free. This practice is, in my personal opinion and that of the administrators of this forum, potentially ruinous to the record labels concerned. It will kill them commercially. We could forget getting so much of the rare, obscure composers and their music so many of us enjoy!

I have begun the process of removing links to commercially available cds from this site. I am trying to do this carefully, removing only those links which do not comply with our policy. In some cases it has not proved possible to do this as selectively as I would have wished because of a mix of commercial and non-commercial recordings in the same post. Current members can be reassured that their posts are not being "interfered with".

The Alfano symphonies's links at the beginning of this thread will "have to go". I shall however copy and paste all the comments made by members into a separate thread so that none of the discussion is lost.

To save me extra work I am locking this thread. This does not mean that members who wish to express further views cannot do so elsewhere. I just very respectfully request 24-36 hours to carry out the necessary last checking and to copy and paste all the valuable comments made by members.

As ever, the thanks of the Administration for your patience and understanding through what has been a difficult time for this forum.


Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: the Administration on October 23, 2018, 02:51:46 pm
As members will perhaps appreciate this transcription (copying and pasting!) has involved a little effort.

It has not been done with the intention of re-opening the debate.

It has been done to try to ensure that no contribution made by members should be lost due to the deletion of the original thread.

Members who wish to continue to discuss the issue are free to do so but it would be helpful if such contributions were made here rather than elsewhere. It would also be much appreciated if comments offered fresh perspectives rather than rehearsing "accusations" which were made at the time and which were refuted. From many private messages received and from comments made publicly there does seem a consensus that it might be time to "move on" :)


Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: Greg K on October 23, 2018, 05:09:11 pm

 From many private messages received and from comments made publicly there does seem a consensus that it might be time to "move on" :)

Has Sydney Grew been allowed back in the forum (albeit using different names)?

Not that I'm against it, but do suggest the condition of such a return be the "moving on" you refer to.


Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: Dundonnell on October 24, 2018, 02:39:41 am
One might guess at or speculate about the "real identity" of any member of an internet forum. Members join with a username. They may, it has been suggested, have more than one username on the same forum.

If a particular member leaves or appears to leave a forum, for whatever reason, that member may in fact still be present under another username or may rejoin using a different name.

These are not matters over which an administrator has any control. All that can be done is to try to ensure that posts, from whomsoever they originate, conform to forum policies and practices. If posts consistently or persistently do not do so then appropriate action has to be carefully considered and discussed by the administrators and, if necessary, implemented. These responsibilities are most definitely not taken lightly and have involved and will involve lengthy consideration and discussion.


Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: Greg K on October 25, 2018, 03:31:09 am
Which renders kind of futile all the "grave deliberation" over whether to revoke Sydney Grew's membership here (apparently done).

I mean, what's the point if that person can so easily return simply by choosing a different name?


Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: Dundonnell on October 25, 2018, 02:29:13 pm
I am sorry that you have chosen to use the phrase "kind of silly" in relation to the action taken by the Administrators. You are of course fully entitled to think that but Maris (Latvian) very carefully explained the reasons for that action in his post as administrator on October 9th. (Maris is unwell at present.)

Yes, there was a considerable amount of "grave deliberation" regarding the decison. You would, I presume, expect nothing less in relation to such a decision by the administrators of any forum, particularly if it concerned the particular member in question. I should add that the decision involved consultation with others and representations made by other members.

What we were not aware of at that time was the issue of "sockpuppets":
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet))

It appears that this is an internet phenomenon. Neil McGowan and others have suggested that our membership includes sockpuppets.

This might appear to potentially render the action taken on October 9th "futile" (rather than "silly"). I would continue to defend the decision as justifiable. Administrators have to make decisions in circumstances which had become extreme with posts which were irrational, insulting, abusive and were bringing the forum into disrepute and deterring new members. We take our responsibilities seriously. Exercising "power" is not what we are about!

The latest thread started by "Maud" suggests that the person (or persons) involved has launched a new forum elsewhere and is using that to post the same YT videos deleted from this forum. This is, obviously, a matter for him/her/them.

Links to such a site are however simply a device to get around our policy and practice here. For that reason-and that reason alone- I am deleting the thread in question. We shall do our best-however reactive rather than proactive that best may be- to deal with "sockpuppetry".


Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: Greg K on October 25, 2018, 04:24:29 pm
I agree with you that "futile" is a much better choice of words than the "silly" of my original post (now edited).

A fascinating Wiki article about "sockpuppetry" that is, BTW.


Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: Dundonnell on October 26, 2018, 12:03:54 pm
One way the article suggests to recognise sockpuppet is by their use of a particular style of expression. This would include spelling and archaic usages.

Point taken😁

.....and what I would now really like to do is to return to posting about music and composers who have come to my attention in the last month or so :)


Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: Greg K on October 26, 2018, 03:58:06 pm
Without you as chief poster (and the responses from others that stimulates) there's little for you to do as chief Administrator (the Sydney Grew affair aside).


Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: Dundonnell on October 26, 2018, 05:28:46 pm
Without you as chief poster (and the responses from others that simulates) there's little for you to do as chief Administrator (the Sydney Grew affair aside).

"chief Administrator" ? I do not recognise or accept that description :) The Administration is a joint responsibility. There is no "chief".


Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: guest632 on November 14, 2018, 08:23:40 am
As members will perhaps appreciate this transcription (copying and pasting!) has involved a little effort.
Sorry, but you are certainly not an administrator of this forum. As you well know, you were dismissed on September 28th because of your threats to delete other people's posts. Your unsuitability as an administrative assistant for me became clear at that point.
You are now using a stolen password, and have no authority.

Nor are you any longer even a member of this forum. You were expelled as a member on the 9th of October because you were sitting on the stolen passsword and childishly refusing to hand it over to the forum owner.

Since Baziron and I started this forum in 2009 our motto has been "freedom and delight". There is no place for deleters here. Since the year dot deleters on the internet have always been despised and abhorred.

You have tried to hide the true facts about this by removing posts and even by removing the forum owner's account. Such childish actions have just wrecked our forum (and have also caused the loss of many of my friends' private email addresesses). But stealing the password does not make the forum yours!

We at this forum have never had a policy of protecting the activities of record companies, and to say that we have is a downright lie.

I want to know 1) how you obtained a pirate password for this forum, and 2) why you are sitting on it and refusing to reveal it.

In 2011, when I made space available here for people affected by a change of policy at the Unsung Composers, the owners of that forum gave me several serious warnings about you and your behaviour. But clearly I was too trusing at that time, and decided to give you a chance.

As soon as this affair is cleared up I intend to start three new boards: one for string quartets, another for piano quintets, and a third devoted to other chamber music. People who want to discuss record companies and their doings will have to start separate threads.



Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: the Administration on November 14, 2018, 11:53:04 am
Members had to endure weeks of this nonsense. For the last month the forum has returned to the pattern of posting and to the tenor of posts to which members were accustomed prior to that.

What we cannot permit is the re-opening of an exchange which it would be grossly inaccurate to describe as discussion or debate.  The assertions regarding "stolen or pirate passwords", "dismissed administrators", "unsuitability", "warnings from the owners of Unsung Composers" are as offensive as they are manifestly untrue.

The current administrators have every reason to believe that they continue to retain the confidence and support of the overwhelming majority, if not all, of the membership. Many members have indicated this either publicly or by private message.

We have no intention of responding further to irrational and outrageous allegations. We responded in very considerable detail and as calmly as was possible at the time the allegations were first made.

Neil McGowan suggested several weeks ago that "Henrietta Pedal" was a "sockpuppet" for the former administrator. The fact that a member with this name had not posted here since October 2017 would tend to indicate that Neil may well be correct.

In the circumstances and for obvious reasons immediate and decisive action is being taken in an attempt to cut this off at source.


Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: cilgwyn on November 14, 2018, 12:38:39 pm
To be continued...............?!! ::) ;D


Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: Dundonnell on November 14, 2018, 01:33:59 pm
To be continued...............?!! ::) ;D

Not if we can prevent it!


Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: Neil McGowan on November 14, 2018, 01:51:10 pm
An entirely appropriate and timely response.  Thank you for your intervention :-)


Title: Re: Links to videos of compositions by little-known composers
Post by: cilgwyn on November 14, 2018, 05:09:12 pm
To be continued...............?!! ::) ;D

Not if we can prevent it!
  ;D :)